« WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Episode 530 - Jay Bakker

2014-09-03 | 🔗
Jay Bakker was thrust into the world of televangelism as the son of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. When their empire came crashing down, Jay struggled to survive the wreckage. He tells Marc about his journey and where it has brought him today. Also, filmmaker Jordan Brady stops by to talk about his new documentary, I Am Road Comic.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
A guy? I would do this. How are you what the voters, what about bodies, what the buccaneers, what the fuck's takes, what the voters, what the fuck it Alex, what the buck very thin with buckminster fuller ears, mark marin? Here this is deputy, have welcomed the show show a pack show again We do these little interviews these days, occasionally sometimes in a few minutes I'll, be talking to Jordan Brady, about his documentary, I am road comic which I am in, because I am road comic. Why come from that Come from a history that I come from that weird comedy boom time before the the advice is that the word advent before the the appearance?
the reality of alternative comedy then use when all you had was a comedy club and the three I'd, say out available for their regular shows and their open MIKE night, maybe once or twice a week were you go and you'd weighed in you'd try get on to do your three to five minutes in hopes it. You might land again spot on a real show and then maybe get that but it opening slot as host and then after years, perhaps move up to feature act and then be, that's your hometown never be able to headline unless you get too big for them say no to that's the way. Used to work? That's the way it was so before I die About that a little more before I waited Jordan Brady, who also did the movie. I am comic. He was comic himself after jordan, bread, I'm going talk to J baker, the the son of of Tammy Faye baker
Jim baker, about his his spiritual, classed in his question, through addiction and and through a trying to establishes his own search of sorts saucily fairly. oh writer, about religion, Beer I was excited they have the opportunity to talk to him. He came down to talk to me for Minneapolis he's a fan of the show and I thought was a story that had to be talked about and had to be told to me, I was interested to meet him sweet guy. So before I get into those talks. Let's talk about got coming up: nevada city, film festival, that's in nevada city, for you. That's right. That's tomorrow for you who are listening to the show on the day. Is released I'll, be doing to show with the with the wonderful nick food I also have a few oddball dates coming up on september, seventh, in Denver september, twelfth in mountain view, californy september thirteenth in irvine, California.
Timbered nineteenth in Dallas september, twentieth in Houston september, twenty first in austin, those at the last of the oddball dates are doing several trip. Any house dates here, in los angeles at the trip anyhow said, is in red see at the steed island theatre here, many of you did he shows its a cheap ticket, there's park I don't know. What's going to happen, it's a no pressure situation for me, but I do know I will stay on stage for at least an hour that September sixteenth, twenty third and thirtieth and october fourteenth and twenty first and, of course, the l, a podcast festival. Saturday september, twenty seventh, I'm trying to book a fun chauffeur, but there's all kinds of deals to be had over there you go to again devotee of pod dot com and get the links to these. shows in these tickets. Long strange trip. Yes, yes, it's provoked me the dark ear. When I'm talking to Jordan Brady. To remember where I come from to remember
path here to this mike the path to the oddball festival, standing in front of fifteen thousand people, the path I took and could not get off of. Nor do I know how to get off ignored the diverse entertain, any other real choices with any with any momentum. There was nothing else to It would be a comedian for me. I can't the comedy stars at the communist or the other night talking newer to the heir to the matter, your joey d, as just thinking about what it was like. Stamina, a patio known that I'd stood on that patio twenty five years ago, trying the comic dry, To find my way to find my way and in a lot of different cities, but once I worker nineteen, eighty eight and one night, a circuit of the boston new england regional area doing one neither driving five and a half hours to machaerus main it might be w gulf to open up. For a frank,
toes the x rated hypnotist at a college yelena in a town that is the furthest point east on the coastal united states mature. Its main number driving hours upon hours into the new england landscape, are doing to do one nighters. I remember doing feature work yeah on in in clubs across the country. Thank god I moved francisco Ninety ninety two and I was a pretty strong feature. Didn't. Take me long start headlining lining I was able to to sort of skip alot of the tedious feature work just because I I just had the goods and I'd worked hard to get him. That's what doing one nighters in in new england in anywhere you can get him we'll do it makes you tough man I think a lot of people don't really appreciate what some comics go through two different world now comics can sort of choice your own path and pick their own room and avoid the clubs
entirely. What's left of it, find their own way and that's fine. It works, but some people don't cruet, quite understand what the what the job of comedian is. Necessarily guy came up to me, the comedy store last night and a new comic two years he said- is being a comedian help. You with auditioning, my god, I didn't know what he was talking about, that Why you're gettin into it always had soared over a week, thorn at my side about cats you'd get into do. Instead, not just a then get a few minutes together showcase for other things. It seemed like a bad. Their decision that they were. They were carpet baggers in the province, should that I chose love, but you know I have grown wilson left over time, and you know what ever anyone's gotta do they gotta do it and Obviously, plenty of room for everybody not necessarily to get paid, but certainly do dump their shit out into the world, which is fine, and I still believe that the guys and have the goods that can do the job and that can find them place within it within the business,
on stage are gonna are going to do K one way or the other living it living not be an easy one and some just fall away to decide. Okay. So let's start at jordan brady- and I want to tell you people that you're out of the gate here that you can go to. I am road comic dot com to buy the movie or you can watch it on hulu And- and I and in this is me and Jordan. I've known him for years and you'll feel that when we talk for Jordan Brady filmed. Hector document director, commercial director. Former comic Former com. Former comic- I remember you, I remember you I remember you, with your hair, look in meda hair cut. All I was like I was sort of like mullet, hair metal soccer cut, got a backwards soccer cab hockey,
really also was a kind of formalities earlier and what was it like? The eighties? You were doing the you know you just you know modern modern, so polite was away, just remember headshot, yet a thing you here that a look yeah tried for a look specifically eighties. Look I mean you gotta, look at those that, just like that at the time. Sadly, even in the nineties, I had an eighties look year. I think that was my demise. Yet what do you level one off on now? I'm just trying to keep it. Other, unlike two thousand five right now You know when I ran into again. I guess for the first time was in canada. And you are working on a commercial and in you had done. I am comic which I'd seen you're a little, certainly about not being in it. I see like I must black, that memory. What a dick I was to you about putting me in a movie you wanna, dick about it. I was reasonable.
We're very reason. I just I think at the time he made most of the movie. I wasn't really on the radar yet and you're a house yeah married. You probably thought, like he's. Kinda in the same boat, but I am, I wonder what he's doing now I was in the game. They bring in your head against the wall, you do there. I am consequently which got some traction. People dug it so the new movie. I am road comic. What do you see as that thanks. I mean that now they're both available no, you can get him on itunes and networks and what not, right now it's on hulu I can I am road comic his on hulu, and I am, I am comic- it's still lives on on itunes. I yeah you can buy and I saw a dvd it wasn't it bargain ban, but it was actually levelling the bargain ban. It was under one of the legs going I have been to shake right, but you I mean you could get. I am comic pretty much anywhere, but I am road comic. What you do this from what was missing nothing was really missing. I mean I'll, be honest here, I am comic. It gives me
connection to the community of comedians that I respect and love. I lie of comedy, but I'm not a practitioner regularly regularly. So I like that, like being that world and I am comic. answered a lot of questions when I would be shooting commercials when people You too made me do I am comic right. people on set with their laptops, not paying attention to what we're shooting really hey. We found this clip with you in the hair in the green suit yeah. So what was that, like? Do you know these guys? I remember, shooting in Atlanta yeah near and because I do no mark marin. My kid loves his showing you sent the guy the Yes, you sure you want to start a really cool, so I said: was gonna make a documentary about that So once I mean I am comic different comedian our document. Terence, the only just stephen fine arts
the director of eddie, pepper, turns bitter buddha movie and, and he just directed to Eddie's new comedy special in ruin ruins. Yet now a nephew young at young, a young gun young director, great kid. So people like Steven all insane, hey, I'm this commie documentary like I asked people hey what it what advice you give me making a document and don barnhardt comedian hypnotist magus act, who made one called die finding the funny that's so he calls with some cool is about that at the end of the conversation. True story goes handbook in a gig up in kenya, with washington jack diddly. Do you want to do the gig jack deadly and I go jack deadly How would I do and, as you can go headline, go up with a free, and then you do like forty minutes. He, although, as you did forty minutes, when I have that haircut I had learned some colleagues, some shit, but I mean I had may be seven men
and I go down. I don't I don't do it figure it out- I yeah. I know it was like fuck now jake goes with me. My son goes with me to clubs yeah. I just set a couple of weeks ago struggled to do ten minutes, your back in it just for fun when people people by stable, asked me if I want to do it. Ok fly version: burbank hey, you would like. They filled a form behind improv august seventeen bunks cup. Last year during the improv. How feel it's done lose my gibberish, but I am not afraid to fall out the sky denying alone. It is it's a blast, because I have nothing at stake here, I'm not in the jordan. Comedian game right, so its funding, you and your appetite back in the gloves back in the gloves he's hidden eyes. I see the instagram was born here were clearly he's got some talent that give you half italian so it's a. What was it that you are setting out to do with I'm road comic as you gonna opted to did dejectedly,
dejectedly, as I cobbled together. Twenty five minutes very happy, some of it we will not grant really thanks- crowd work, and I the fall in the movie, but is not about me. It's about people like yourself, your interview, which I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing love doing it. It will we both had a friend in frank, frank. You best deal the frame steel story is a big hit, both community. emotionally to that guy sums. The road, a yea sums up. He was right from the law to oil and was you know, servicemen and addiction, and he just lived the road god do your time and again a badge of honor me earlier to just party and eleven on the couch standing comedy kaunda so that your story about him in and then Europe
a view about the quote. People say from you is that's the big trick. How do you balance developing it sonia right, but again, sir, the serving the route yet so I went up and I would have been did it and I interviewed you pete homes, who I call the heart, the sole teaching miller. I follow for a couple days down a san diego at a club. Not even big venue does the american comedy and the joy he has doing those intimate what I can't intimate audience a club, yet where he could, he could go south small theatre, I'm sure yeah, you, In an interview, maria ban furred doug, benson, Jen Kurt. Mickey glaser israeli person in both movies and wayne. Fatter and wave adamant went on the road with me reactors these two? Do I got a musical act? Letting Nicky out of other people you mentioned is really the most sort of
What we knew the road to be. You know, like night. She does the club, oh yeah, you know People like maria and p o day there there their delicate flowers, that day. You know these were not maria will wellmere Maria little bit, but there was definitely a generation that was us. That united garden, alternative rooms. You know you didn't. There was not there. Weren't allowed alias joy. You go to your club in you. Wait around you pick your city and any fucking just take the hit, do an open mike's in until you get the the opener slot, and then you can Through the ranks on the south, we would drive from Virginia to atlanta to do five minutes to get book. But if you got booked he put in a cloth, and you wouldn't be. The middle AG was the one nighters near the comedy zone and then the punchlines reich this this chain yeah. But you know, but a lot of the people that work now like pete and those guys I mean they've, a yo coming.
where you have alternative venues and you are able to build your following differently. I cannot ignore marie is like the best. There is right now in committee. in, and one of the reasons is that she's by the choice of her own had to protect. You know what is specifically hers by virtue not really being able to do it any other way and become of that. You know. I don't think it's been easy for her, but she is really one. The best comics working agreed. That's part of the big trick. Whether it's on the road or in town is sticking to what you do in britain. Well that pointing is your if of using the bob new heart interview, but that that to me was very telling about what we're talking about when he became the biggest comic in the world he had now. Done comedy that he be was fascinating? Dude, like you You know he had the kicked around a little in advertising and did some accounting work and then he in a body had put together some demos to be the next
and re there were make running radio sketches and then his body can cut it in disguise, get a job and bob's just hanging around these doing some local tv man on the street things. oh brother records the guy he's doing the tv show with locally as big dj in chicago warner brothers. It is working for acts in this dj said I know guy does comedy bob newhart need their white will have make a demo forests and send it so body, I was put those bits of getting used to do. What's his name, make em your own in: let's do a demo soon warner brothers, so they I became the bundle mind not quite but some of it. So a new our does that and they send it to wonder whether there are great, let's tape amid a club one night any and they d never been in a club. You ve never done out of an onstage, it took him a year to get him a gig at a nightclub where they could record and it was an opening gig like he was opening for four days in that they headliner wasn't a comic. It was another type act agreed. Which the bill on the weekend, so he can record his record and when he went into the weak hearing for the seven bits or whatever
buttoned our mind and they helped them structures and new bit. So he went up there almost cold. With these scripted pieces, and then in the interim after that eighty said the friday night, the chick someone was drunk and they could use so is this one saturday night show so in the three months to come. The producer. The record he did is first to comedy gigs one and went ahead and when am windsor and then your drops unease and easy international sensation, basically, but now the benefit, what the reason I'm telling you that is, that he gets to enter the of comedy people knowing that record. So he tour on that record and people are coming to see that right and they were already his people and I asked him? I said: well what if you had to go the other way at some of your peers, and you have done the feature spot for fifteen years before you made your break? Is it I couldn't? Do it right very right? it wouldn't, he would have to figure out. accommodate that that requirement. What is a learning curve like four people that have a u two bit and they give him
on status run, which ones have lasted. I mean you in my mind in a boat burnham, as has really proven to have rights, yoke is he's a bright eyes. Creative guys got this incredible musical talent and you know prolific and he keeps churning thereby you know he figured it out, but I mean cause. I think I wear a lot of those guys and even a you know, last comic standing, you know these guys. You ve been around a long time. I mean you know you, you didn't, he made big, you can make for a year touring on that may be, But then you know you kind of back to where you are usually and it's very tricky. You know. I've always said that when you're stand up and that's what you do, you know you got if you're lucky, if you make a break, you've got a five or six year window, and you know they either you gonna make a tv show happen or whatever you gonna do you gotta you gotta grab that money I remember in the early nineties doing colleges, at a good money working and clubs headlines, some big in middle work watch going to Dana goulds one man show
right when the one man show became a thing that people were done, the first one, the first one genius, and I said I don't have that I don't have that and I got up on me: money do another starve and I start directing. There was Dana danish Jane went on and I loved. I love him. I love my follows. Grew I take. By clients to shows of him, but he's an interesting idea, because at the time because he's one of our east, he started when he was in his teens till he was in that and he was in the sex fast and yet have a brief, but your game is a great example of how comedy change, because you you know his comedy like he can watch india. Gold perform on any night is like watching. The history show business because he he's a great mimic. You know he's a great Do you want bits with several characters in them? He can do yeah he's gonna is of great joke writer and tower, but, like you do it all. You know he's like he can do it all But at the time when we were coming up when I was coming up because he was a peer of mine, he still a little too dark.
That way you know he had the framework of of you know. He committee was everything he needed to be, but We saw a light while he's gave us yes, and any he I think he I of you ve talked to him, but it seems to me that, as a stand up, he hit is p Specifically because the it wasn't quite there for him, and now it is in these back in, and people like maria, like evade started, at the time we started. We are trying to middle and do that stuff be indeed, roadwork. I think, what a crusher right so it would have been hard for audiences and doth alabama right, Wichita, Kansas liar even even in seattle in those days which would be would say, was progressive. that number you do more with aren't you gonna giggles nature with terry. I came to record that's your hope, but how do you feel by giggles we know the weird thing was. I knew that I have the spaces like. I need a club and that was a beat up. New fine comedy caught in a way had low ceiling
you know you know it was dirty and I ended up doing to records are only because I knew that I gave him three weeks notice and I sat need today recording filled the room. What barely I didn't like this. I don't think that was filled on either of my words to be honest with you, why did he tape the big specials in theater? I didn't. I did my special and club because I thought that we should see comedy it feels more intimate month. What did so suppose we are doing calmly for big theatre. Yet prose pros can do it. I can do it, but it's not what I like to do, but our it's over. I am road comic, so I com was, was a chance to interview a bunch of people that I admire, and here there take on the road and see how its change see? What still the same? It's not that it's! It's it's the grunt work, but I look, it's not lucy case selling, out fears or dave chapels selling out radio. music car, even like berry, who I love, who has found his audience and heard among your show talkin about finding those three
cedars and yet and whatnot ways comfortable. It is is not even that level is like bars road gig right in examining the worth of that badge of honor does exist and Brian Cowen and traces keener married there, comedian and he said it best at the end of the movie. Pick em pick a city you live in. Draw hundred mile radius around that city and work at that until you get good ip diseases working your time. Have a day job and do comedy, and I came out differently. I was like, if Stand up. That's all you. Do you mean They now there's shock many outlets for comedy and there so many comedians That may be, is better to have a life and do a gig right when I going to stand out better? I think that, because of the way media has broken apart, the possibility for finding your audience in whatever way possible is different, and in
I think the only liability to it. If I am to talk about it honestly- and I dunno if you're really talking about is you talked to her very own movie- is that you know some? It depends. what you think a real comic is and what the job of a comic is, and that is very high for me to sort of you know, get away You know what the system was. Was it was a comedy club system. You know you started open mice, and then you can did you like to something? Then you weren't opener and then you were middle and then you know the headline, but never in your own town, better still exists, system is alive and in place, but then all these other alternative systems exist right, and these are all comedy nerd universe out there, but that The matter is why PETE homage to the great comic peat and that crew from Chicago who, like AL kinane who may all in the movie those guy hannibal yeah. They all came up both doing all rooms and doing some of the mainstream rooms. I think india and someone like Hannibal, you know, is like ie. No heat
his back on a writing career did did to pursue you know being the standard yeah. You want to be a standard, these great snapped by so there's different outlets right doubly, might made his own audiences by saying if you bring a person of a different race to the show yes, so there's a lot of outlay and very area aid. If the when we started it was still the club system in you're talkin about this system of comedy words like the club doesn't give a fuck about anything but so drinks, Robert hawkins, when you right here put it, if he says anything about selling drinks really and fried food right yeah. That's it I mean. That's been, and you really realize that that's the truth, you know you can as a comic you. If you get to a certain point, you can do dorothy or you can do a bonus structure, but that cause I to get panicky. You know like I did like the comedy works like I never made. Money is a comic until the last four years I go. Do the comedy works in denver? on a door deal not adored yo, but a bonus structure. So so I guess are number tickets, so it's either this guarantee. Of whatever that is,
I saw this amount to take its. Then you get a percentage, a bump right, not just a bump like a big bump and when they first like when the first time I did well there I saw out three or four shows, and they give me a check about what that white and then my first concern with you guys did our I write by gay, you you were, about the club. Yet because you want to go back, and of course, in a really making involved exactly see. That's the other things like they'll make an all their money on that You know so, like a united took me until recently, the really realises that it's like you, pay. You money they have. You These made this deal with them. Why would I was it the improv in miami shooting and interviewing pete, like Josh blue, He glaser withstand a condo in florida and we found her there for the first documentary and I remember the manager we were setting up and in the manager had a meeting with the weight staff, all very nice, we all love comedy right, but they were just about we gotta, pushed the drinks
to get it out before last, call see if they want more round. We have a bachelor party. Let's see them in the back, We wish the appetizers. We out a news. You keenly ring. We wanna hear it was all about food drinks with the restaurant, with barn restaurant as yet like all. This is what it is or how many, how many calmly comes back in the day, kept the disco ball as a reminder of an error that had come and gone Gabby Amory. I wish it was a cautious. I was that how you saw it I just has already like those rival. May we rent this points out? Yes, those are usually one nighters, but here was a whole different system bid me out some companies very healthy and I think interesting for people to do. What his movie because the guy, despite whatever we may think you know a lot of people, aren't aware of the nuts and bolts of what you know comedian. Go through what even it used to be like if your person of our age and we used to go to your local comedy club. Still, don't realize? Just enough, I think that the mistake
It is like a disguise on television, occasionally Andy, and he just the is going to do is show, but you a lot of people, don't really realises the hell. We went through whether the the cup, the two things that come to mind like Judah friedlander, you, you, Maria Jim Norton about the merge yet and selling the merged and doing the morning shows. Well that's what made a difference in charlotte. I think I did a bunch of local media will come out well yeah because they all know you Some people know me from the show, but like there's still a bunch of people that if there are I've no work or their driving back from work and the comedy interview comes on the radio show there. I want my doing tonight. What do you do it? Let's go see the kind of guy sounded funny whether the other aspect in I am road comic, screen. I keep a tally of the expenses yet, and I supposed to drive up there and do a couple, a one nighters, but I called two weeks before and the guy these I got, I never heard from you I book someone else, so I had to fly I saw him already in the whole t shirts
dont barnard's, like there you'll pay, like twenty bucks, appear I've given away for five bucks? You can have three, but I lost so much fuckin money, the rental car and then we in a week breakfast take food home for the free lunch, yogurt and fruits or eat at the club at night, or we have, as a rogue comic manage. We spent zero on food well, yeah because, like you want that like when they put you up in a hotel that doesn't have that shit, you like why they like this so tell me: are you nice hotel, was reading a copy of day and they have a breakfast till ten and I give what can go down there. It's the only way to survive me a courtyard marriott over anything fancy like doug, benson I really think he has figured out. He does shows for twenty. He books himself. where a ban displaying a roller coaster. He wants to ride any. He puts out a lot of product, I mean, maize it, how many episode you put out per week and write it, we show an still do the road and dug is putting out. He has exe pod candia video shows is very low.
sit by the way I mean the wheat is. Is it's amazing? It's amazing, the law, this time. I smoked was asked some screening or douglas air, and and when someone hands you a joint and you just take it because when you see a person. I know you don't smoke like I quit smoking Edith every now and again, when you're in this certain crowd you go in that mindset and they hand you the joint. You don't think right and you just take it in one hit. I had to go in the corner and sit and pretend to text idea is to keep your shit. I can't do it can't function, but he I've seen him smoke and then riff on and so quick. He so quick witted here, but I love how he has structured his roadwork around like You go to alive podcast like I think, that's how comedy has expanded. Why I'm exact about the movie, I'm excited than a minute I'm sorry, I'm so thankful you're and it is a wonderful, wonderful stuff
he's wonderful comments about your fans. You know bringing you arts, bringing you bake goods. then you ve touched the showed at it to put it in the context of when watch a documentary, and you see a clip out of context for me. It's kind of weird yeah it gave the trailer you get a glimpse of it for the current, in the context of the movie, your point of view towards merge, versus you know. Judah friedland urge him Norton they're. All everybody has a different take on. What's so like. I think, there's an audience now, as I was saying before you know, of people that you grew up watching comedy and now like there's a new generation of comedy people that are very enthusiastic to to really get the sense of of the job an end from all different angles of of santa performer, You know it's it's it's! It's compare a longer abode and give some great advice to young comics. Ok, Larry Donovan discover you would love like. If you're gonna pick up a woman, you, you can't leave the club and if you
across the street yeah your names on the marquis, but it's coming, at eleven thirty zero you, but you have actually wherein you better use, a quick with that great joke. Did anyone a joke in them in future. the comedian there town during the weekend in it's saturday he's at the mall, neither jerk and now it's great use the mines Erin a woman comes out. Man comes up because we saw you show us out your greater really I to hang out you maybe have sex or somethin essay show last night in the comical. Really, the first or second yeah right, that's funny, yeah, all right so er, so I am keimer comic dot com, it's on hulu, don't hulu! I expect it'll be other places too, but hulu, who good people over to not analyzed mandate? Will congratulation some guy nicer level went off in your work in eventually the air out. All the bad things will be behind you sure we just keep chipping away at it.
you know a thing or am I really appreciate your support and ever having me, they absolutely integrating the area the very go? I would pick up: go ahead, grab it. I am road com, I guess I should watch it. My dear, I should take a look It myself in that thing, I'd so now working Talk to I d, J baker, if I could feel my whole with the god. If I get fill my whole, what some spiritual foundation If I could be grounded, you know I no about spirituality, but I do understand it. I'd too, It's like hey. How can I be ok? Can I make something out in the world or believe something or put some things together. That dont have any explanation in Ghana lean on them a bit to get a little I will peace of mind. Can I do that? Can I breathe deep? Can I pick a star? Can I can I just
turn it over to the universe. In my faith, in that all keep working for the most part, The fact is, I understand how it works and people's lives and has been working and people's lives since the beginning of people. yeah some that more defined than others, some of it more insidious and other some of the more dangerous than others, so that more dogmatic an organised and forced upon by threat of death. then others so the the opportunity to talk to somebody that came from the world. Fairly corrupt, organise religion, I would say thoroughly corrupt organise religion, but there is mom and dad so yeah this kid straw. goes deeper than the one I than the one I can understand having not been really brought up with any religion whatsoever, we'd both struggle at some addictions, but All in all. I felt like this was a completely compelling conversation and I think you'll enjoy it all right, all right,
talk to J baker. Now I am impressed with your with you. Your journey, my friend now you consider yourself. A man of the clock had is at work Are you a minister? I am but more of a theologian, but I mean you do you need a licence to minister. We need a licence to marry people, so I have a license, but you can Anybody wants you they can. They can call themselves a minister pretty much three ladys they say to and bury you get a utilizing buried I had ever had to sign in to bear he anyone, I think, you're supposed to do it at a certain I see I had her, you have if you burying people behind people's backs and ditches. None of that right. bearing in the right place. I think it's probably something get away with. I told just out of curiosity so
today we had some. We had some trouble, yes, Your guy was supposed to pick you up in torrents and he showed appear to pick you up and I guess he thought maybe to take you to torrents or whatever. The fact is you know you run in about an hour late. And I'm losing my fucking mind, I was in my mind, is well like I was beyond I'm angry eminence, almost four like tears were about to come to my eyes, really yeah yeah I was I was. I was really freakin. The freak in the hell out as as somebody of faith. How did you comfort yourself? Well, It is a little bit more complicated than I know that I know, but there must be some practical, so so, just in the sense of many who do you know who even will get into to exact what you do, but I like I'm asking for as a personal personally curious. You know how you, what are you doing that moment? Worthing,
we're completely out of your control and you're full of rage and anxiety, while I'm sober so I halts, and I try to not worry about. I just got eighteen years the other day and Congratulations! So you do this sort of do the next right thing staying the present one. Second, at a time he I have no control over this, I try that quite a bit yeah, but I was like, of course this happened. This there's this happened, because this is my life enough. Can work out what who I'm does never excited about doing interviews in this one was really I was excited about, and it's just the point point or your like We are not yet we were so close J. We really I mean like design advancing like it was one of those moments where it's sort of like what an hour late. I gotta be at my therapist at three and then I gotta go to it yeah. I got a thing and I'm like- and I know you came out here to do it- I'm like fuck Oh, my god, I I'm have to make an executive decision. He if he can
If one that's it man, I would have been devastated I would have been devastated, outcry call my wife crying and being like my life, over napkin, I yeah. No, I mean this has been a big deal, your your your your inspiration to me and what I do and I think in what sense in them senses that year very transparent and very honest about your mistakes in europe. Just like, oh, I make mistakes I mean you talk about your marriages and ye trance transparency is very important to me and you tell stories that are about yourself that aren't aren't spit shined, not comfortable yeah, not comfortable, and I think that's extremely important, and you know I always say that you know comedians and passers are are close. Except comedians are honest. I like that one. Why mean? I cannot it's really hard for me to fathom
LEO knowing you been dating a celebrity child yeah that this sort of baggage, comes with living in the shadow of of of charismatic characters. Peg charismatic public figure yeah, you know, but you know your tammy fair, It is our mother, kameido bakers, your mother, Jim Jamaica's, your father. Yes, You know when I was young. So you know when, when when the ship went down for them in the late eighties right. So I wasn't that he's like eighty seven yeah. So eighty seven, you know I was already in college, but I mean everybody knew who your parents were and there was sort of like a sequence. I remember in the eighties of of high profile ministers, you know Taking that you're going down yeah, it was like a yacht domino, but this as you know, this was eager to grow, in that in in the in the world
evangelical entrepreneurship, now, let alone just the past. The ministry yeah that did the business model was what was yeah and now How old were you can remember these to the track you out on that show yeah? What is it you're calling it was praised, the lord, the patriarch that can change and names and pity club and then the Jim and Tammy show- and you were how old, when you were being. How old are you now? I'm thirty eight? Now, if you were a kid yeah, I was a small, more small, ed. I was eleven years old when everything fell apart, so so previous to that yeah, You remember your feelings about your parents and about what their their mission was yeah my dad work all the time he never stop. Working. I'm gonna see him that often cause he was constantly like building build and what did you see it as the lord's work
we're orwell, because I mean I think that generation I had idea of like the american dream so and special like assemblies of god people, so like? Oh here we ve gotta be like walt disney or whatever. Not. I've got to have the american dream with Jesus. Ah sir august kind Assad as that type of thing you now as like this kind of what they were intertwined yeah, that part of the mission was building out the empire. Yeah probably shit and have been part of the mission who built that model has been around for wagons, billy, graham and pat robertson oral rob its. This was near the tradition of of taking the ministry to that level too, to tune empire had been established more my dad. It actually started the seven hundred club, pat just owned the is that true work here and so my dad basically oleson path. Started wanting to host my dad chokes. My dad wanted to do kind of like johnny, carson type, show
now that in a yeah I love that stuff so and when it became popular pat, decided to start hosting it cause. Pat was just the d, a network owner. That wasn't a minister now now he just saw his kids being successful. They want to my dad. My parasite is children's ministers and doing puppets and stuff, so they wanted my dad. In the puppet show, and my dad said: yeah sure we'll do it for you guys and it was in virginia and is about you, but I want to do a late night talk show with their christian anger, yeah yeah yeah, to talk to people about the Lord yeah I mean my parents were like the real super religious conservatives. I see well, they seemed a little later. Like they were having a little more fun? They were having a little bit more fun than everybody else. Unfortunately, they fell first, and Everybody's hatred towards the other guys just got to be able to be more focused on us. So who is your
there's mentor in there. So I mean you know if it was it wasn't it. Ultimately, it was him. Pat I mean you know. I mean my dad had worked with different different ministers and stuff over the years, but I He had a vision. You know it's like he just he almost well that off yeah man. He just wanted to do something that was big he wanted to. You know he grew up going to like these crappy little and retreats where it was like. I've cabins uno we're gonna talk about Jesus, I'm not like that sucks. Why don't we create a places? we better than that. did you now, but then he had to feed a monster and that's when the compromise inserted come in. As you know, yet the raise a million dollars every two days. You know where I start to slip a low bet,
yeah. Well I mean, did you feel like early on you know in in terms of the values you were brought up with? Ah, did you feel that that your your your father's faith was true yeah, both of my parents? His faith was was was very true and very sincere and that they had been raised in in in a type of religion. That said, you had to be perfect and, as we know, no one is perfect, so you have to hide things and then, when you hide things they fester and make him darker and stranger, but no my parents were all, as I have was funny, because I grew up thinking god hated me, but not because of my parents. It was because the people that matter parents hired to teach the chill in church and run the schools and awe, and things like that, my mom and dad both always seem to have love as a trump card and so honestly always blame like gonna talk to my dad dad. You know that
I'm the way. I am I blame you. You know you guys told me to love people and that's what I'm trying to do. You know a half. Will you say? Do you tell him that you blame him? Yeah blame him for taken me down this. one. While you know why we, because I'm I'm a lot more radical than my dad. You know and I'm a gay affirming- and I do a lot with gay rights work and I, but but what's right, but let's go back to when you eat. You know that I have to assume what was the first legal issue. What what? What? What was the first day at the beginning of a guy was well. What happened was is jerry, farwell came to my father and said We have information that you had an affair with this woman named jessica han and it's about to come out and it's gonna be released by jimmy swagger. now, if you go ahead and resign and in turn your church over to us
will restore you and he ll you and do all this stuff. Well, they got the church and they didn't do any of that. Stuff is kind of like a corporate. take over and away, and I mean I remember, being a kid cause- we're in palm springs. When all this happened at all These guys and dark suits coming in false peoples. the lawyer for hustlers guy yeah yeah. That guy was there. They were all like Larry Flynt yeah I'm in there all there, and it was like you now ask him like we need you to have your board of directors, step down and all this stuff, so they weren't going did to touch they weren't going, stop the story they ate They gave us the idea that they were going to do so was coming out either way, but they were going to fix it by doing like this whole thing of restaurant. Restoring my father, like you, know, he's panting, ravenna howard, ever going to create a theatre of Yeah of contrition yeah
A shit like they did they set up was right. You won't you wait. You just gonna, lose your EU ownership. Your business yeah, we're gonna, keep you in the business by by giving you yourself asian publicly right yeah I mean they were going to like you, and I have to go through this in this and put him through some sort of counselling and all that stuff. Swagger was involved We found out later. Swagger wasn't is involved as we thought he was. That was them just you know saint swagger, it's going to get you and if you don't, let us help me could swagger went down later. Yes, went down. Probably by eight months later I item. I honestly, I remember the phone call. My father got one night of a preacher. Saying I'm taken down. Swagger I can get this preacher had hired for target. first air and my dad said: listen. You know this is the worst thing you can do right now I mean the church has just fallen apart. This is after your dad went tat, and so my dad was like. I think he should rethink this year and am I said,
it's too late and I mean literally the next day amerika resist. I was plain g, I joes on the ground, listening conversations and then the next day and happened now it's interesting cause. I knew canada and anya and he you know, did whatever he did with jessica Hahn later. But the weird thing about, Harrison is kennison. His original agenda was to be your father. yeah. I know he toward across the country preaching, so he could become medium? He wanted. He wanted the empire, but he didn't have the fortitude to add to the spiritual fortitude to day, you know in line with Jesus yeah, so that you and he realized that. So he chose the other path, a kind of seem like he always had a kind of a ship on his shoulder about my dad. Definitely why I, I think that he had a chip on his shoulder about what your dad represented, yeah yeah, I think it was because he comes from that. Yeah you know now
is this. Do you like when this went down it did not? Did it did it? Obviously, the business went under just like in a way to your dad entered financial problem. Yeah did the men survive any of this for a few years, I mean you have to remember the the church owned. Our our house, which was you know they call it the parsonage and I went to the school at the church. So my everything was gone. so like we lost the church, we lost the house, we lost everything we had to just go so far will cut you guys whose entire done yeah when without We are acting on his word at all, not at all Thanks for your dad added, I act. He came out. He asked us. as listen. I want. I want to give you guys this this and this and just put it down on paper. For me, dad did it. The guy got jerry, fall gada and then read it as a list of demands. Then my dad had sent him. I mean it was just the weirdest
bizarre like digits games. These guys were playing with politics. They crushed him yeah. horrible pollen and they knew it and they knew it all along yeah. They were lycaena. We just we just picked up hell of a lot of valuable real estate and withdrew baker under the bus why india and it was weird because you know it's like this- my dad should listening. This would firstly like southern back is an assembly of god were never groups that got together My dad was a symbol of god and he was southern baptistin, oh as like there's something she, but he was so afraid about the news coming out about jessica hon. You know and nothing like that had really happen. In a big church, was at a set up. Your friend of his introduced him to sk on my mom, had left my dad said: I'm not in love with you anymore and my dad went so they were separated yeah, they were separated and mine.
dad this guy named John Wesley beer said: oh, you ve gotta meet this girl here and you know that was it. It seems that I mean I don't know if it was like a conspiracy theory like it was like when I did this and then years down the lurid we're gonna get him mean right right. Ok I also was a set up in that, like someone introducing in that guy liked to have things on people, he was notorious for having a guy that the guy who did I mean later, my dad would find out that the guy was going to like massage parlours and telling people his name was Jim Bakker. You know that kind of thing, oh my god, so so what now? I have to assume that the the the sort of you know the vortex of everything being taken away and you thought your father, you out of all of them, seem like a pre sensitive guy oddly yeah that, like you know when I, when I think back on the intensity of all them, he seem to have your he was now. a fire and brimstone guy yeah. He was
sort of soft spoken, almost MR rogers, the kind of guy yeah you know I never want to have like it. S like celebrities like with the sitting at about making rooney just die like macaroni, would be honest, show all the time he now, unlike gavin mix, add the love boat guy Yao and like the facts of life, you like do you like the celebrities yeah, they will come on and chat and talk- and you know I mean my mom did a show on penile implants. She, my mom, had she's a character yeah. She had someone, she had a man with. aids when Ronald Reagan had even mentioned aids, yet somehow my parents just did stuff, and I dont think people liked it when you just do stuff not supposed to, and they just did it as like. Oh this just makes sense near these are just people and that's where I got that whole concept of like you're supposed to love people from your mother yeah, it's my dad. It's like love is a trump card.
Dad had not wanted my mom to interview these people. He would have said no so yeah so I always found that really interesting. What did do to you a person that yet we I mean, where did you get dark right? Was at happened. I I knew I mean it. it was everything there is just a heaviness over it. It's where yami he was, I mean I had to have security guards because we are constantly being threatened to have our be kidnapped. You know and stuff like this, so I'd have a bodyguard for everything went down or yeah before everything went down. Of course, all that disappeared and, of course my thought might might body card tommy was actually more of a dad to me than my own father is my father was working all the time and what kind of guy was tommy timing? Was just really nice awesome guy was like a coach, you know, and I and no athletic ability, but he taught me how to throw a spiral football you now and you know when you would We often give me a mean he in vienna becoming a police officer. He was my pal
you. Nobody also didn't taken crap from me like a lotta, be bought it were scared of the breakers kid. You know he wasn't. He would like gimme, charlie horses and stuff like that. Was your colleagues have I've. You know there's some people who followed mice, that seemed like they were kind of a cultish thing, but I didn't really feel like there a major called vibe, because my parents seemed in there were people who probably felt that way, but I dont everything my dad and mom sought that way. Cultivating know and they weren't like you need to do this or you know they didn't own apartment, buildings and whatnot, or they did what they did and people could live there, but it was usually for elderly folks to live there too. It wasn't like you know, you can never leave or anything like that, and my dad was just an entrepreneurial happened to love Jesus, and I think that was the problem now it's like he wanted it, you know, have, is
it can eat it too. In a way. It's like. I want to be a preacher and build disneyland right. Well, I want like what we can get back to this, but you know you brought up that they were brought up in in a christianity that was based on perfectionism and that's a misunderstanding. Isn't it yes? It is a great misunderstanding, but let's get down to that, Did did you now as a child and when all this went down when you're leverage twelve years older, the did you did you pray we have Jesus in your life and in your heart. I prayed a lot when I kid you know, but I know I just pray for my parents. sister and will you believe in jeez yeah? So did you that when this
down. I imagine you're. Looking at a lot of chaos, stir fry fighting between your parents, your father's, a broken man, and did you did your faith diminish? Did you watch their faith diminish? I didn't even think about my faith at the time it was my family was just wanted to see my family survived. My sister ran away. My dad was like pretty much catatonic for a few days and then, like the field position on a couch and saw, I was scared. Yeah kid I mean you know we have. One sister have one sister she around yeah. She make it out to your right. She barely made it out, but she made it out. She had she had a real rough time, real rough got it and that I love him more than anything and insight that one person who can understand How are the only two yeah you're not going to run into somebody? It's like interesting: maybe you can relate to my parents. I now
I watched one of your shows or your dad makes vitamins and my dad's made vitamins and I was like damn. I should have brought some of my dad's vitamins. So he's still at my ease and brands in Missouri in doing this thing? Is you have a congregation? He doesn't have a aggregation ages. Does a tv show in music and all staff employed at we don't mean him, don't see eye to eye on almost anything, but we just try to be a father and son and that's can be that's difficult. So what was journey then, once you went when did you sort of go rogue I guess around thirteen for about raw actually start drinking about eleven bartels and james fine color in a huff thanking them. their support and went on and in high school. I wanted to be popular, I mean it was one of those things where I wanted to be, with the popular crowd and I'll drink and party, and a nice drink and partied and smoked, weed and tried
have a fun time. Was there a stigma, you yeah and I some fighting near, but there is our a lot of like the cork has got like this guy, somebody's cared lego hardy. In our view. defending your family yeah. I mean, I remember one time in particular is in class, and this is defending. Some girl and then sky who kind of shut down. You know, and then this guy looked at me, who I shut down and said I whispered Agus. How did you dad like getting the ass in prison you now, and he is about four four chairs for me, so I stood up in just start. throwing chairs boom boom boom and went to hit him. Unfortunately, my floor to history teacher got in front of him before I hit him and I barely missed her. So you know that was fifes, days in suspension. He got to go out of school as like. This is not fair. That was informed. Yeah I was in a christian school before then, and they would. You know they treated me horribly
the christian schools are actually more worse than the public schools at what I discharged told you was in public school, but him for that. They put me in this this christian school and they were just. Let me just awful when you father was imprisoned yeah who is taking carry your mom, my mama, and then my mom ended up divorcee, my dad. While he was imprisoned, yeah and got married, and I am I wanted to move in with a family friend cause. I don't want to leave florida at the time. So that's something you'll, never say again yeah you correct. How did you get along with the new guy or what he was? Okay? So all right, you drinking and you're stuck in florida, did you actually move in with family friends or did yeah yeah lived with the family friend I got it is funny. I had a job at this christian tv station doing camera work really you have like super. Didn't care sought always we're, like my Clinton, gore teacher rice and arrogant, just drive them insane and add one his shirts is, like you know, spoke like ninety shirts,
your tv. Now there is such a problem for europe, punk rock in and out to now and their like sitting there telling me that you know bill Clinton, the anti crisis in arms in there cotton growers. Why? Why did you end up working there? Did you do? What did your family name help you in that? Will I dropped out of school and I needed something in high school job dropped out of school, and I went back and my g d later, but where there are needed job actually at a saving enough money to get some turntables techniques. it was going to dj a little while now, it's kind of fun that didn't work out very well. Did you ever get in a regular band, I am in a social distortion cover ban yeah, you really so this it's interesting because what it seem like it that in in In the aftermath of of your your parents, you know public, shaming and end financial bankruptcy
and criminal issues, judicial issues that you are able this sort of have this free? Rain rebellion that any kid yes has, but yours was sort of waken. It was a little more loaded, then just a regular kid joined in a band lashing out or having a few cocktails any cause. You represented. You know this this, this republic, corruption of christianity. yeah, and you know, and it would have been a lot easier had I not loved my parents, but that was the problem. I loved them and I knew them as my mom and dad, and that was it would have been a lot easier if I was like yeah. This is a bunch of bullshit, you know, but then I really cared about. My parents did now during this time, where you were indeed jane and drinking and did was Jesus party or life not really mean who's? It's kind of back my mind. You know can I one day, maybe if a man in a really you- and I was one of the things we are just- wasn't there so interesting, and
in in light of of who they were, that you know you really saw saw. It is more of a business yeah I mean I've really believe they genuinely believed it, and- and there were that essence, that I thought was real, but the business part of it. I just didn't and there environment, and also of this kind of thing where I felt my parents always felt like they needed to get it back in, and so you kind of fellow you got caught up living in this constant like need. Go back to the glory days or we ve gotta, get this place back or will never be true. We truly are you now and, and that's not don't know, that's no way to live. Did you visit your dad prison yeah how long was he was actually the one who told him my mom was leaving him his awful. Oh, my god, yeah the. How long was he in prison? He is in prison for about five years wow. So, like thirteen for it, I can't imagine that it'd be on the other side of that glass, like that,
is that with the way it was, it was at tables or they had tables. It was a medical facility, it was it was they had the all the gates yeah. You know the barbed wire and other stuff. It wasn't the golf course or any thing right, and I think they had the medical him at the medical facility because they were afraid he was going to get stabbed or shanked or something like that, and they wanted to try to protect him as much as they could and that they afraid that you take his own life. Now think they're afraid to take his life here and you know he had problems. He had issues issued. Scenery me went through some shit here and it's My father became an unrealistic hero and away for me no cause. He was in prison, and so he didn't have to do any of the discipline or anything like that. That was moms, my mom, the one putting the lock on the window. So I went and stake out sneak out into my dad with the guy. I got to see a few hours every few months, so it was like,
Dad is awesome, you know, and it was so hard to focus in school and stuff cause. You know I was like. I just want my dad to come home and you get out of prison. You, the expectations were gone and reading it convert. Well now your mother, like I, I imagined that the journey with your mother was a little tricky because she came became such a caricature of herself publicly. It was weird, though you know like people would as I ran into tammy fame all on the maltese t as the splattered make style yeah, and she sign up and she would embrace dead man. You know I was told her. I'm like MA am, I think, you're so beautiful without mega by it. She had their self esteem is really low, so she did that. But at the same time she's like I don't care what these people say. Everybody's telling me to take my make up off everybody's, tell me tone down here and I'm not going to do it like most women when they did christian stuff, they would take their jewelry off of why they went on right. My mom kept her jewelry on you know she just you know as like almost in in some way it was she was.
somewhat naive, but the the beautiful part of that was it. She actually cared about people here. I think their vulnerability is is what made her compelling it also made her a target yeah now totally yeah. That's weird thing, above all and the crying. You know I mean one. She did feel deeply but too she have also dealt with addictions too, like out of an and volume and things like that well, if you've taken any of that, you know you can get the weepies yeah. It makes you a little heavy heart that does sensitive yeah. What what what was your drug choice. Ultimately started doing lsd. I just love lsd. I just thought of the grey under the first Lollapalooza this trip. Crazy nesses. When you get skill, get some pretty get lsd and smoking weed and all the staff or die. Then I started in flash.
Ask around like sixteen or seventeen. I surgeon these panic attacks like footling in edo when everything looks too real. You know all the sudden, like the trees are to green for canal. People's faces, look sorta, glossy yeah yeah, like you, see their pores and that freaked me out. So as like. Oh my god, when am I going to do and I had this, my dad had this old psychiatry spend who gave me am thorazine. Why Obviously, the guy hadn't been to an update, updating I greatly psychiatry, class and quite awhile always authority for four may I gather flashbacks. Of course they were awful. I was like you and your knee, and these are the armstrong out analyses did my dad I'm going crazy. If I have to have a piece of my brain taken out, I mean I'm freaking out all the time
and say you weren't high and you were getting yeah yeah yeah, so they put me on the thorazine to try to help, and that was awful. That's old, school nokia, oh yeah! It was awful, so I said screw that and I was like jack Daniels. I can drink and drinking works and it doesn't give me flashbacks matter of fact. If I start to get want to have a drink now was that was experiencing time travel quite a bit. I give my turn. King David tell style, tat s your black out time. Travel yeah now throw up on your shoes, and you don't know where you are Where were you haven't? I was living in orlando at the time and you by your fee, They wanted to help you you. I did that he's trying to help me from prison, which is quite part, so he felt bad yeah. I think he was worry about your mother
My mother was worried about me to try to help ya yeah. Oh, I remember I came home drunk one night and she's like have you been drinking and I was like I knew as buses like yeah geez. I am then, a pray to god that the next time you drink you get so sick that you'll never won a dragon in so odd. To be its all like amazing, that, like you, know, you're going on in having this moment, Tammy Faye baker, No, I mean I sat down with my moment. I lost my virginity because I got crabs. The first time I had sex prodigy. say that while I tried, I told her that I got him from borrowing from his short secure and then one day I came home and she's like jamie Charles, because that's my favorite name and I was like yeah sick. I need to talk to you as like. Oh what am I going through the roller decks in my head of everything. I've done wrong and I sit down she goes he. I talked to a doctor about the crabs thea, You didn't get those from Sharon somebody's short, and so she had like the condom, talk with me and so she's like I prefer. You don't have sex, but if you are going to have sex you need Condoms in our sir
it's real and weird you now I'm and look back at it now. I try to see it through your eyes. It was really seem. While you know I you know, like I e when I think back on I actually have I dunno if I still have, if I had a copy of her her album. Okay, her record album, I dunno. If I still have it and but I you know he, I always sensor in both your parents, oddly, because I have nothing but contempt for farewell or swaggered, because you know that they they were clearly showman, but you you're, your parents always seem so fragile to me. Yeah admiral, fragile group man, whose largest them pretty fragile guy. You know that the vote. Betty was not far from the surface veto. sometimes I'm uncomfortable on the freeway. Okay. You know I mean I I you know I I suffer from panic attacks and all sorts of stuff and yeah, I'm a neurotic and yeah yeah and
and that's why I say where the first time I saw your thing- and I saw you out there with these books you're talking on a thing years later, I dunno, if I'm prepared or not- and I was like yeah- I liked this guy it's a guinea pig. This is my guy he's got a tv show. I gotta watch this guy. He can barely keep it together. Yeah so Ultimately, what leads to your your person, all you know, either your turned towards no recovery and and and and impersonal mission. What what? What? What sir I led up to them, I started a church with some friends of mine, while my dad sent me away to get sober, but he sent me to be a part of like this church program yeah and I didn't last weak, but there is these other guys who are like trying to start this, like punk rock church, and it's like I'd much rather try to do that. Like the the the stephen baldwin thing, no, no, no as for you, but had you ever thought about doing the ministry before and I
thought about it. I thought I had joined the peace corps honestly and without my being here the anthem more down my lines. I did want to help people for some reason right and but my dad sent me away eggs. I was when he got right now to get a prison. I was drunk all the time party and you know never coming home. You know he's like you gotta do. This you see. I was in an extension of the embarrassment I don't have is always an extent. No, I think he saw me as my son's life's fallen apart right and I'm a good christian, man and I've got to do the right thing he still for he had that he still hasn't yeah size like ok, sent me away and too, where two phoenix arizona too. part of this thing, called a master's commission which is just a basically a bunch of kids learning how to like witness to poor people- and you know, do like little sticks like rip phone books in half and then talk about Jesus. You know really kind of weird bizarre, though it was mission, stuff, yeah yeah, and I didn't
Ass a week that a lot of rules and a lack of rules and but there these guys who had come out of it, who are starting this little punk rock thing called revolution as ok. I love that What was the idle idea was that we just we had shows, and then someone got up and talk for fifteen minutes more were to show Iraq shows all sorts of different bands. Ok here we were doing that and it was pretty cool when you got the tattoos and piercings, and I got my first tattoo then yeah, I you know I I got my peers and stuff later, but I only lasted there for a year because felt. Had there was the alcoholic was still alive in may. There is no like had gone through recovery right. I was just a dry drunk for a year and I had people around me telling me like gods telling me this that you're doing such thing, I, like my buddy, wouldn't be like I'd, come back from a trip and in abuja, god to my heart that you're drunk in know really, I mean Obviously I was drunk when I was not here,
forgive. Ok and so that that was kind of the that was kind of the thing you know that was the I just felt so guilty. I left yeah and so and just started drinking. I went and got a job at the gap and just decided to commit to drinking. Yes, we are and then indiana expert, near alcohol the J baker working at a gap where oh an lana, georgia lost lost in the gap here, and when did you meet your wife which one the first Didn't me my wife. Until I got it, I was going, psychologists at the time, and he said I I told me it was an alcoholic and I had a different picture, my mind, now an alcoholic washer so yet sober but try to get sober and his via the amateur stake. A nail me
in a dinner dinner me and there have been one sense by a meeting and were eating. It was weird and- and I picked up my chip and that was eighteen years ago I met my wife- once you've not been to a meeting sensor done and haven't been to a meeting said. No, I haven't. I haven't been to a steak and ale or a food meeting of some sort that was lunchtime meeting, and so you walked in with the sober thing yeah yeah. I did that and a mouse programme, five months into my sobriety, I met amanda, yeah and there she is really pretty, but you know the newly sober I could not communicate with anyone, because I'm extremely introverted- and so I drank talk,
if you found that once the alcohol was taken away you, your your conversational skills, were limited yeah yeah. I remember one point curtain. I don't think this is gonna work out and I was like why and she's like you, don't ever say anything and I was a chain smoker, and I remember she quit smoking because might smoking disgusted her because I shall see smoked to bury how bout yeah, I helped her out. I sometimes have to cigarettes in my mouth and I know it so that's how we she worked at this coffee shop and I really liked her and I just kind of kept showing up how that marriage west about seventy years, while it's when you lock in net first year in it yeah, there's gonna use in them that yeah yeah about- and I think you know. Yeah you know, and then you see that maybe they have similar tendencies in assets, yeah very and ugly, yeah, sorry, buddy
that's okay. So now, where does a alright? So now you you, you you've turned your back on this revolution idea: you're, not a dry, drunk anymore. It that's over. You got married and And where does the evolution? How did you just come back into the picture. Well, I had a ass, her body mine? Who would always take me? You knew I like to drink, and so he would just take me into the bars and make sure ride home and as a whole, It's all about and he's like man, you know just his grace is god's love all the stuff. I was like drinking, not the drinking, but the fact that that he wasn't like condemning me for drinking and the fact that he didn't want me to die in a car accident right and you know, and so he kind of was like cause. I was like dude. I just I feel like it hates me, you know, and he told me I was for shit. Why did you feel, like god hated you, because I couldn't do anything right? I felt like I fell I can't get boozer
you assemblies of god, is like you. You're salvation is like trying to grasp sand. and so in perfectionism thing. Tat has to be perfect for god, which no one could do it, but is rather a misunderstanding of the idea of sin. Yeah now completely new york, a hundred percent. But at this time I'm minnow eighteen, nineteen not and that's what planted in yeah planet into my head and then so. one day. I said you know. I thought he was into this grace thing could help them sleep at night in animals or whatever obviously been sleep buddy and, I said, prove it to me. as it proved to me somewhere in the bible that there's this type of thing, where our god loves me if I'm drunk or if I'm not, you know- and he had me, read the book of galatians and the book like blew me away and what it say and just said you lovely the no matter who you are, what you ve done. You know it said: you're accepted it's not about works is not about. in things is not about the law and justice.
Stuff. I never seen before, because my parents didn't do like we, a bible study at home in on it, like my dad balmy, like he man, dungeons and dragons. You know that that stuff that in matter to them, you know like really yeah like All my friends reich were able to play with a that's evil. You know my parents: toys are an evil. It's ridiculous. This whole perfectionism thing is: is troubling is very true, because nobody can be perfect and end the ideas that god wants you to be perfect for him. So everybody's line to each other right in and that's not the teaching of Jesus now now and the church also started dynamism start the don't ask tell you know, there's plenty of l, gb teach you folks working in the church, probably hating themselves, hate in themselves, and also just you know, everything, was fine with them as long as they never said it out loud like even if someone's new yeah like oh, I have a roommate bob and I'm like. Oh Bob and john are really awesome. We love them.
many other, adding to say anything we have to let them go with. That was begun, but that was probably also the prison of like they knew that you know if they were on some level if they were to do to be part of the church that that church reinforced the shame yeah, so that becomes almost like a stock. Syndrome here is that you know you're safe here as long as you don't really you know, except who you are and in an you, maintain that level of shame, which must have been what hinged them too. Religion and begin with yeah. That's it so fuckin tricky. Now it's esteem. So I just get interested and I start learning about the bible and and- I'm probably nineteen at the time a honey and I start to get hebrew. greek translation books. You had to get into that nigeria to realise it. Oh this horrible thing that people have been doing. you others in the name of this book. Yeah our act we in this book right. And it's not about the perfection.
Or you know I don't know works and all that crap it was. It was like the resists unconditional acceptance. And was blowing my mind you now in Jesus. It'd be more upset with religious people all the time than he ever was with anybody else right, religious people. He would just drove him nuts he's like you know you guys are like whitewashed tombs. you're right it brood of vipers in our society It was one of those kind of freeing things that I wasn't raining it through, like the american, evangelical, glasses anymore and even as I've gone moulder in oh, I try to read the bible through more the glasses of work. See says you know. So when I look at the old testament and I'll get everything out, you know I try to see it through crisis, in the old testament, god told us to strike these babies heads onto Roxy. Now I got ok, Jesus. I love your enemies, Simon guess,
That was those guys is best understand him at the time of war. Yard was right now, so when did you start preachin, I think was nineteen or two. Me- and I remember my first sermon. I wrote out all these notes and they were off. I was awful where'd you do it I did it and at lana at this year's group in I swore to never do it ever again after I did in an organised situation whether it is awful while not even unorganised situation. I just was, I thought you said you weren't my anymore bombed again here. You know, I'm sure you ve never bombs have oil energy. Ok, you know you get up and area you're, just like. Oh, my god. This is the worst feeling I've ever had and I'm never ever going to do this again, did you? father when you decided to preach. I don't remember He really don't remember. I really don't remember now, I bet. Maybe I did. I probably did others, but I'm sure I did
tat was of eight of that was all round like getting sober time. You know my brain was just like we didn't. You find it interesting within yourself that you are going to now take up this. This This challenge in this this occupation, that that the vote- that was what you up in the air, but it wasn't. I didn't see it that way, because I felt like I've been something new who had been revealed to me now, it's kind of like when luther was walking down the lightning stop here. Formation happen them in a kind of felt that that's what was here something new, but there is no sense of my parents as good as they were, were missing. Missing the point now: ok, I do remember column idea now that you say I would call my dad at night and talk to him about grace and said This is amazing and he's like I know it's there, but sometimes I feel it too good to be true and all that a degree of in raised to say that that's not. In our god, doesn't love every here and god loves everybody, but
I mean we were river or free will so that was you know people had to make their choice. You know that's assembly ago yeah, I mean better than the predestination thing where people relax these people were all made to suffer in hell and burn for eternity, and people are okay. You know it's free was a little more like your hands on in terms of determining what god's will yeah. You know and that's why you get a lot of people like. Let's go to the mall and talk to people about Jesus and be real uncomfortable rights because you're having these conversations in there, the other is an intellectual component of your dad actually discussed the thing that that boy your mind. We ask that you if grace exists there then the ministry has to be for all yeah without question. Yes and he's like us, will tricky yeah and and and did you was contentious or did you say why go with no, it wasn't contentions contentious ever did kate. a few years later, when I decided I was announcing that I was gay, affirming
Where did the congregation start? How did you build your reputation? I went to a lot of music festivals, then I spoke at those events and people got to know me and I started little church assert revellers again, I called a revolution in atlanta, and did you have a congregation yeah? How many well I wasn't rolling stone and when I was in rolling stone it was like you know we had like Two hundred people show up of course, then, like five months later, as like there, fifteen of us. You know, but yeah somebody was anywhere from fifteen to thirty, but it's crazy. You know cause, I I you know, I buried kids I I know I went through seen a lot of horrible stuff like what you just living through these kids lie. here there you're our letter, we realise below that like teenagers and you now and and
at dealing with going into court with them and all the stuff and they're not much older than they were. You know what I mean, unlike in their parents, I come into the court with us or come to their high school and talk like I feel comfortable in the principal's office, just as much as anybody else where I saw you with the intention was a ministry to young people yeah I mean my idea was. My hope was that the church would change and become a different thing. It just happened to be young people were attracted to that and the fact that I was into punk rock and had tattoos and stuff like that at you know, you know people just use that the stick, letting mutual you're just straight up, driven by grace yeah and then you decided to politicize around somewhere. yeah- I guess so eventually yeah and went in when do away with gay rights. Yet off, but I mean I just felt like I was following in the footsteps of people like martin luther king. You know you can silent anymore. You have to speak out and hauser received, not well by who
by almost everybody on board maybe the established church, the established church. No, there was a great lot of churches at our appreciate what I did, but I ah mice, speaking engagements had that year. All got cancelled within literally like a day for both for basic you're too you years being engagements based on youth ministry. Yeah and- and I was also speaking to other churches- and you know I didn't just speak to youth. Why were they asking you just? Why would you why were they asking you to speak because they like to hear my message about grace and challenge them? And you know, funny, can sometimes
People would argue with me saying: oh you're, preaching too much grace. You know I would get in trouble for that, so I've always been used again in trouble for something you know. As I've grown I've I feel like I've, become more interested in theology and philosophy and trying to focus the church as a whole, but I'm in I want people to feel safe. I want people, I mean it's impossible make people feel safe, especially in church, but I want people to have a less stressful life. You know I would like to see people not suffering because of who they are and I'd like to see the church stop, being morons and and and so hateful and angry and tearing people's lives apart, aha that's what I would hope for, but you know as I I read philosophy and theology, my everything is changing. I make right now. I just feel like I'm in the midst of a huge change in in terms of like some of this stuff actually happening, yeah, and you know my faith. You know where my belief system do, I believe in god you know, and so
I'm a doubt, and I have a lot of questions and I have a ology that I found the best thing. John, the poodle said it bases its a week, theology, and also a fundamentalist theology too, weak theology that maybe sometimes I can't defend its- biology. That's, like you know hey. This is, would Jesus did, and this is what happened? Perhaps Ria you know where we I mean can't you use parade the mythology eyes of the life of Jesus from the message of Jesus here and that's what I'm doing in arms. Going further and further and that so you ve been taught for your whole life and you can start to to grow in and understand things in a different way in it can be. You know a lot of rattling and how I I you know it might be a delicate subject, but I mean when you're my
was sick yeah. We were there the whole time here and in it took awhile huh is awful and What was her discussions during that period in terms of her faith. Now she was always faithful, but one time I remember she got really upset me and met with me in my sister and here I don't know why, god, but in this happen and there you know, everybody kind of got real ron was like when you didn't go back to you now get your chemo like you should have an os came a huge fight. You know she was, care near. It was tough for me now. I she would stay up all night
like re situating, her clothes one night by size and then another next by color, because she was so scared and having such bad panic attacks generally thing that could get her off of her enemy. She was, you know she looked like a skeleton or renew his was she was fading away. I you know, I didn't see her body when she died, because she so much life to me. You know what the around the same time my marriage was starting to fall apart and literally a week after my mom died. That's why I found out my wife was done so big time yeah. That's what usually happens all once yeah that re stuff mean likely outcome. Born and raised in the briar patch, so I can exist somewhat when things are two good at I start to get nervous. Did she have any peace at the end.
I'm only asking that, because user visa religious now I know what I mean, I guess the answer for me is weak As I was working on my marriage, I didn't get to be with my mom much that last month of her life, but So I don't know- and I seen as religious people, I seem, as my parents He had a mean the human beings and when the rubber hits the road you know it's it's different. It's tough and we only have these questions and incite, gives a shit in our joint. Where are you Jesus, you're here, that we great to see a but right now my mom's dead, and I don't know what to do. You know so now, but you're starting, you know you're starting a new church here right. Well, actually I've been doing a church in minneapolis and minister just move the minnesota about europe Oh, what brought you a minnesota, my lovely new I've got a job at blue cross blue shield, less noble yeah.
And you're she's season, she's agnostic, she's, not believers- are really here. A hearty super us into an she like comes to my things and when I talk she's like I have no idea what the hell you just said, you need to figure out a different way to say, had already three out of good editor, now she's great yeah, and you start congregation up their yeah I don't know how long is go. Last I've been thinking, maybe do- and I am the measure ever listeners listen online, so Ivan in about doing an online just doing the sermon doing a sermon online and every week. then just meeting up with people wherever I met on the road or in town and stuff like they're, not adverse too to to doing to do
in ministry and in bars and in in er. Now I did yeah at the end of a church. I mean right now is a bar. The church I've been in before was a bar. The church before that was in a bar is that is that sort of an honor to the pastor that taught you about grace. I never that way the problem in a kind of a beautiful way, yeah you and it's also common ground. You know I dunno if he ever went to church before, but you know it's kind of creepy you're walking in and it's like their place and everybody's dressed up and you're like oh there's, no neutral ground, heavy vibe yeah then like sometimes it's scary, organ music or like definitely designed to blow your mind yeah and a lot of bad music, worship, god and my god must really be pissed cause. We worked with really socks yeah. So we don't even have music at our art our church just cause. I think it's a trigger for so many kids who grew up on that stuff. It's because they hear this whole. We love you Jesus. We want to be your boyfriend and then you know the same. People were beaten them.
Been, kickin them out of their homes. If there are common out- or things like that and your folks are from minneapolis, your folks are from wisconsin my strangely. My mommy's from international falls Minnesota the ized. You can go, my dad was for a mom, Michigan so and everybody always like plays on the southern preachers. It was really funny like on Saturday night live and their god wants you to, and I'm like out there northerners few ate my mother's food. You would know she is the north bland northern food. Do you do you feel a connection towards? your mother in that state. You know Finally, there is sometimes where she's to worker woolworth and its They there more, but I know where it was, and I at my psychiatrist office is right there. So when I go down there every week, it's like. I see that there is kind of that feeling of being or my mom was but arms very important to me here. You know and as you heard
where he lives on with me really well, he I keep pink elephants around as one time when I was a kid when she overdosed on medication. Here she thought there was a pink elephant. In the closet and I stood up and said I look you in the name of Jesus pink elephant, but after that kind of became a joke between us little pink elephants now- and I said I guess it's like my wife's, like you really are being connected to your mom lately out, like a really miss her. She was a good friend what a collar today room if you were freaking out now to call her today to tell her what I was doing, because I think she really would have been excited for me. Sorry, it's okay. I don't mean to get emotional, that's all right, but making me emotional I'm a little raw myself here yeah I mean I'm, I'm I'm excited there's. This is I'm excited where things are happening
you get along. Ok, you're, dead, yeah yeah. We had a really cool talk on his birthday on January. First, my sister was there and it was his be cool. We haven't had a kind of conversation in a long time, but were awkward guy, We were two men and we're like to know how to relate to each other and we have a lot of the same corks. You know what I mean in your scope and a different but different stuff that we, each other crazy. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah! Now you can't you it's hard to to to disorder team. The parts of them that are in you yeah, talking J idea, man as an honour to talk to you, I really am a fan- I'm really glad I got to do this now. You said that your sermons are available online or they're, not yeah. They are available online at revolution, church, dot, com, okay and I'm on twitter and facebook and all that stuff. And if anybody wants to help my failure book is called faith in doubt
It s all six hundred copy. All these are doubtful mary. yeah, I know comedy lovers, love good theology blocks will best of luck to you, man. I thank you. That's it that's the show that was something good guy that guy on the path. This path, as we all are some more joint than others. Some more aware than others. Our goaded doubled, father come and get that our folks who, out of people just get on board after some recent episodes, and I want to encourage you and then to get the free great did a premium. The most recent episodes most fifty recent, the last six months. I could pay. Framing like that is well, are always free, but I go behind a little paywall and then you've got to get the premium maps so get that free app. Where you get apps for the wtf app and upgrade to premium go to wtf pod.
Forever information about my upcoming dates. You wanna buy some merch and posters and t shirts. If you want to leave a comment, you can do that I spoke on the planet- on the side on beauty, a dot com. You can pick out some just copy got co up there you get the deputy up when together We will build on the back in yeah. You can do what you gotta do right. Ok, The problem former lives
Transcript generated on 2023-02-11.