Brian Koppelman is a writer, a director, a producer and a podcast host, but his most life-defining event occurred two decades ago in an entirely different field... the music industry. Brian tells Marc about the person who changed everything for him, way before he wrote Rounders, before he directed Solitary Man and before he hosted The Moment.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
I thought I'd watch do this, how are you what the fuck knows, what the plot bodies, what the fucking years, what the plot makes, what the fuck a horwitz, I am a man. This is doubly t f. I appreciate your your listener ship good day to you, I hope, you're doing. Ok, I am squarely as fuck. I've been shooting all day, that's what I've been doing, and I have been my lit three times in the same fuckin place driving me nuts we cannot do it every time I hit it again. I just punch myself in the fucking face because like what is that about. I understand this because the the part that you bit gets a little bigger and so it becomes will target, for whatever is gonna bite it my teeth. So I just hit this place. Three
in my mouth. Then I had. The other side wants, like one is going to stop it. When I can't talk, I got should do on camera, I'm talking to you, I'm recording stuff, I'll bitten up in my mouth and eyes are working well, Maybe I'm gonna get cold sore now, because it's all been up and I can have a cold sore because I got my show the thing about making television by having a production schedules. There's no sort, now go take a sick day. I'm in Every seem of of every show, pretty much give or take a minute. and were making thirteen shows a mac complaint in a just. Like I get pataky about shit, I know what to tell you, man Brian compliments on the shoulder- and this is sometimes a thing that I don't always pritchett or understand or know. What am I supposed to do with bright compliment is a film director and screenwriter he also has a part cast his
he's the rider he wrote rounders in its director of the solitary man, which I believe you. He also wrote he's the house to the podcast at the moment. He's a guy I met years ago, says: always been a fan of mine. A start is podcast I inspired him. Why do people may be doing things that day. And they find me inspirational. That makes me very happy I'm I'm humbled by it, but take it into at noon. I had always really realise how found. That is, I don't know, what I'm doing here. I dont have some sort of process or or or more of operating. I don't I don't have a system, he ok, granted. Some guys! Listen! Do a lot of these in your right. Now you sometimes you you can't do have a system yeah diver style, I guess, but I didn't plan anything but
very flattering that people that people are inspired by me I'd, so it's richest laid out of today, when we tell you ve, been working with on the show dave, Anthony's, I'm married this season. We do it did it. We shall bunch of stuff in the rain last night. That's always great to be the chilling rain at night- no some you're in a blizzard the other day kinder some of you were tissue painting, a blizzard didn't happen, it rained a little here. Beware: ok, thank you for asking so yellow rain we're doing shooting were driving in shooting very exciting, mean Dave Anthony. Today I worked with the with Andy candour. Our too the pepper tone today tomorrow, we're gonna were shooting a big day of who else. Oh any private tone again I'm not going to tell you all the people playing themselves on the show cause. I don't want to spoil anything, but it's going well, it's going well, I'm not thrilled about my hair and most of my pants or fitting well in the shirts. I'm happy with
I've got new shoes that all love because there will tighten, I might have fucked up, but that's the way life goes now, let's go to a cat uptake york. I you know I I I tell you this, because people ask me folks monkey and fonda are fine, ok, I'll good. Ever since I've been given them, the monkey the prescription food is bladders, been better scholars energy back, he's not sick, fond is getting a little fat, but she's fine, not biting me very much and she she seems chipper now The outdoor situations, not great, I don't know what happened a deaf black cat, seen that guy in awhile might be dead. It's happened before, but it feels like that he was making we're noises with his face. The last time I saw nothing I could do about it, so I don't know what those noises meant. Maybe he's around. Don't know scared cat the striped gets has been coming around four about it Ok, here's coming around in back and he was
fine getting fat wild cat that wild cat. You know a couple of people feed them up. The street and I'm just another sucker making them fat. Then I was in some other cat. That looks exactly like him. Only away smaller exactly like he had. He just broke off he's of himself in a grew into another thing. Couldn't be a kitten caskoden cats been fixed for awhile but he looks exactly like em. So I get these two identical strike: cats now you're the little guy pushed a fat so out into the front does not always freak. only now from the skies in em back some sort of way changing the guard of these stripe cats of parity cat number one is on his way out and scared. He can never to come in, but the eggs they look identical. So that's weird, I don't know what's ripping apart. My lot out front, I might be skunks might be raccoons. That's you have date from around here.
These are fine with my relationship so far have not fucked it up and I'm keeping I'm keeping I'm keeping cool. In other words, I'm repressing alot of negative emotions and I'm calling that cool. I'm just lock, locking down some bullshit? I'm just keep it to myself and letting it fester cause tumors inside me so as not to cause trouble for other people. Perhaps I shall communicate better as opposed to give myself cancer good idea I'll work on it. Thank you for all the presidents. Thank you for all the kind letters. Thank you for all the emails. I'm going to start reading some emails again. I know people want it might be an easier thing to do. While I'm shooting occasionally to read the emails, I feel stories brewing and dis will will burnt out, said tough schedule. My friends, tough schedule let's talk to brine coppermine, now
like. I don't really know, you'll help people do things. Yes, I believe I note that means like how do you feel fifty years old, right, ok, you like it still really. I know that all I have to do really is spent of hours, make it well cause, and I could have everything cleaned up. I get up my driveway fix. I could have the wall fixed. I could do all that I just have to engage. I could have this guy, I can hire contractors and go if somewhere else for wound just be local, that's happening. You know, they're doing my house, but. so overwhelming the anxiety of it that what's holding me back nor anything else, because six are actually successful as aware, don't even like that word is usually societal before he. Even if I bought a house like, oh my god, how do I make the right choice about decision making? But there is. pardon me that does
quite know how other people see me like as a success for no successful still whatever I do. I come here. I do this. The only tangible way that I know that. Success is changing as other people coming to see me. There's more people to come that's all aware more be up. Of course you you'd find it weird because you so my it simply so identify yourself still as the as the opposition, as opposed to as the seated I dunno, if I, if it's the opposition, because I know that I'm seated in my world, but it's a I dunno if it's in the opposition, but certainly someone who's on the outside sure yeah, but not the opposition fight. Well, but because I still I am I am so on the outside, but like I could make. I could make decisions in with my life a little more on the inside of I wanted to end, and you could accept that if one disappeared, because only by successfully eyes. I bet it's not what you think. I don't know if that's the, but that's the work you got. Isn't that the work you want to do now. Why
because a candle disappear anything disappear or we could dot. Yes, we could die, I can get sick and I could disappear. I get em it's not that it's not yes, but that very it's not two other than yes, what people would say other than acts of god or yeah. You could get sick, a bolder could find the sky, but but you are no longer going to self destruct and end, even if you it weirdly, you have to do a whole series of very dramatic things, to reverse the course of all this. That's here is up for the third season of your own tv ideal, but I would still like by congratulating thank you. I don't know would take that many steps, and I know I know more about self destructing. I just dumb you're not only pay attention and money that much just keep going. What what I'm really concerned about is you know not having
having a family, not having dependence, not you know having these things I got out and what I'll do with myself? So it's really! I would rather not do anything to be honest with the young people. Believe me when I say that, but I really think that, like I could occupy myself with what you I've done. Yeah you're right? You could play music line right here right now, What do you know? How would you I ll give you not writing you? Don't you? you play guitar to do that. I'm not sure what I do. It's a fantasy Yes, let me live that out. Even further just say it's just a it's just anxiety, it's not even I don't think it's all going to go away. Necessarily. Am I you know, I'm saving, money and stuff, but I just don't know what it all means. Sometimes buddy will not get that the family. actually driving up here. I was thinking I was thinking about that. You know you known, can ever tell anybody else, certainly about the we stuff but gosh itself. Is it a picture?
the way that you would change in the way that it would just light up so many things for you to do it yeah. I guess so. They then we'll cynical right now what you want! You want you how long you marry I've been married. Twenty Twenty two, you no problems, unlike you mean no, God thing has been luck, thing in the world for me, that's the the most important decision that you make and I was just fuckin lucky twenty five. When I got married media and Just married the right person and that's a lie. largely lobby on strike me as a guy. It's about the lose it do some stupid shit. I don't strike You like that, and I am not. I know you seem like a pretty airy, the right person. We have these great kid, but part of it is that The person I married and on the same towards her we we're just from the very beginning really on each other's like complete
on each other's missions. So when I was thirty and ready in miserable about what I was doing with my life. You know- and we just had a little kid amy cleared the storage area underneath the apartment will widen Amy and she cleared out the storage area and would like you're going to do this, And I'm going handle the end of this first year. of Sammy's life. If you have right in the morning and then go to work and then go out and researched, because you know it was about poker and I was like playing cards. She was like you can do this and is when you are writing rounder yeah. She was like when my best friend dave. She cleared the space and David I met every morning, but that but the point of it, she said and the beginning. We had this thing with each other that we just along we were there for like whatever this didn't want and she want to be married to a guy. There was wine and about not having done something for the rest of his wife. Sure. Maybe
it's that way. Maybe that's all it was. Will you there's nothing worse than living with a guy like I should a man finally, but a lot of people, as you know, would be, would would down the dream, as opposed to stoking the dream, what It's go back, so this was in new york anywhere yeah new york. You grew up in new york. I'd give him an hour at a new grip. Long island too on the island? What down? I grew up. First, westbury and then in a tackle roslin, rosalind long, island and big house. Oh yeah, big house pool, when I was thirteen. We moved into a big house, or that we live in a neighborhood in a night. You know, define our neighbourhood, jewish kids, italian, kids, kids did botanist right, basketball, my dad it was someone who was like made a lot of money and then would like spend it on that. He had in the fall sort of like eleven years
great as he never let us my sisters and me know that sort of was influx, but when he had certain points like going around Thirteen, it became apparent. Oh, he did well. We moved into this big ridiculous house, no more tying kids, nor although then it was just the juice. I would, I know, we'd send the driver to get him to come over and plays dead. What was your name of islam to know how many sisters you have two sisters and your dad like a big deal, My dad was you mean he discovered the lemon spoonful John Sebastian. Who people say? Look I can yeah, my daddy, my dad was a you know. He was a kid. He never finished college and he was a record producer. You reward, he grow up new york city, queens so he was part of the lake widened, the sixties yeah. I mean he had a hit record as a singer. A novelty record called yogi yeah like went to top ten year when he was eighteen add, music, news, nice guy, yeah yeah. He was amusing business, buzzy a musician,
not really. He just wrote a record, not record and sang and algae record, but you here he had great. Haste in knowing he was able to identify what what songs we're to be hit songs. He always kind of new knew that and when he was very young, he met don kirshner play basketball somewhere. And before caution was anything no kirshner had just sort of been on the rise as a public as afford way before Diana roguery elevated, because when kirshner war, As you have this big publishing company here, and he had money is right: music, published yeah why he hired my dad to be a song rider and. I saw my father was writing in one cubicle with his this guy named donald room in his his best friend and partner, and then, a cubicle next to them was carol king and very often, and next to care.
King and drove off, and you know what I mean. I agree: burn sailors attack their another floor, but essentially every aren't you were there yes, sometimes are accorded their road building. They were in that one and one next door and then one day, Kirschner cursor will call them in and say what do you think of this song? When you think of that and then finally called them in one day and said? Listen, you are, the worst songwriter I've ever he put under contract, but you really know it had. Songs are and by the way, I'm sorry, my company and but I have to stay here. You become the president. You may my dad when it might. I was like twenty for the president of his publishing company I have a music and such not being a songwriter you're. The guy is going to pick songs from now on, and so that's what he did in how. Where did he go from there? He did that and then he and his friend Donald left certain point and or their own company. With that you know where they stand. Him harden the great folks, anger and songwriter, and thus spoonful and the guys who wrote the turtles hit
made those records. I did all that sort of like sixties, pop rock stuff. And then he had a long incredible career in the music business. He was very focused on pop music. After a certain point, so he made a lot of Barbra streisand records he made them in that produce you he executive producer them. He would like pick the songs with Barbara sit there in the studio with the producer. big reckons yell out of the big enough to bear gib record, but I mean he produced. In the studio he's the guy who produced if I were a carpenter provided their hands on the not yet for Bobby now, and he, if our which was written by his songwriter tim harden and bobby talks about it in a special how he convinced him he and his partner to to do it, but so my dad doubt the life I lived. I grew up a lot in recording studio, no hollywood, no showbiz, so we wouldn't go to any parties. evaluation of visa, oh yeah, but he would only the he. Very clear. My mom was too. A moment always say to me who was of any of this or any,
is going to be left. You better figure out how to do it on your own, and you bet an account on any of this being here in any way, but So what do you still on the publishing of some scientists? Now at a certain point? He didn't, he saw them. No, you did. He did Fine. He was huge. Oh do you use I guess he was he would became like he was one of the biggest independent music. Oh sure, to build their own thing and they were all the money is in music, heeded He. My dad did great. There's no question. I was now he's off me: seventy five I think, or seventy or what's he doing I don't like everyday. What do you have to well when he was like? years old. I think he got fired. His last job was running you, my north america, and he got fired and and had a, I think we have fired. You know paid out now. That's the earth. but everybody who runs a giant red company specially that they all got unique effect.
Was jobs. You get ire basically and he reinvented himself over the course of five years and ended up like running companies that had nothing to do with entertainment. So is twenty five years ago you know he ended up. Like running Martha stewart company yammer to the border that company yeah he's done. sorts of sort of a c o gas, all mord member The work loves to work no still I mean it's, it's the greatest thing he's he's the most practical, quick answers. No bullshit person no airs in here is a guy who you know- was a queens kid couldn't get through college cause. He was like gambling and fucking around went to the coastguard. so that his parents, when no, we feel that a college you know gotten almost guy
basically, court martialed out, but has a very, very clear. I am a bullshit attack there and really at the time he had these great he just new. Yes, people have that he just knew so you. So you grew up around this music business and he grew up around he. You know the the the enchanting nature of the music business and also the business itself yeah and the sort of like, you Davies's big marker which he was yeah any gravel money out on the island, yet it was I'll. Tell you, it was something in me hated it. I was like I never talk about this. Others get I'm happy to do what I said on only everywhere. Music. No I hated living in a big house. I hated like it I hated when I have you will come over did I know that feeling we lived. I know they're going to a certain degree, because you know you go to school depending where you go to school. He got friends and like
my parents that no, it was not comparable money, but we had a big house when we add a pool, and there was thing, There was. It was embarrassing in some way I mean I lie. Obviously I loved and as I want an incredible gift, it was that I never to worry about like where my meals were coming from or how are we going to pay for college? Did you think about that? Then? My mother was good at up. My mom was very good She died six years ago and not, but she was incredibly good at pointing out stuff out malawi and what we would you hate. Oh I hated. The value kind of that was put. I hated like that, I hated the bigness of it and I hated the grandiose worthy of it because I haven't done anything to earn it so it wasn't mine. I got a car, oh yeah. I got it Are you hide our work out? What was I I do? I got you know like whenever you want it yeah it didn't want no
not like our a support, but I bet We are too I'll. Tell you because start a very young age, be, I think, partially in reaction to it partially, because my dad was so good at from a super young aid. He would have me like come in and if I wanted to the city, I could sit and any meeting right you just thank you when I was eleven twelve years old, you was having a meeting with some some people who wanted to, they songs for him or producer wanted to produce an act or an artist Let me sit in the meeting and I was always a pretty good talk and he would say: listen guys you can to any fuckin thing. You want in front of the kid he would say. You know he's heard all that's an end. He would make me a participant. He would bring to the recording studio two in the morning and I know all the studio players. I knew every base player like every day. And those gradually goal, guys where I was the only now is the great. How do you starting at nine-
and- and I guess they would put away the joints when I showed up until I was like fourteen then Sometimes they would still get from my dad would never, but those guys it still get would get fucked up around me, but they didn't when I was really little. Who were these guys? Which albums are you talking about? I mean it was like the guy's, a bunch of guys who became toto. this it was like David hung, gate and de luca thir and Jeff Precario and scant back. Stir year, and I mean those guys are all. If recall to me, I david foster, who you know was when Josh groban was in here. He was talking about a David foster's, this giant music guy here, so at a young age at sixteen. I started doing things that helped make a lot of money for my father and and that was great and I felt like I was the earnings like helping like. I was managing these focus and I had a sixteen year old this kid named? He was so this kid named ethan, Hurwitz
which sounds like a start, he was a good songwriter. You were this precocious kid whose dad was a big deal and you kind of got music because you were living in music and he knew what your dad did to you. I going to manage bands, and I started managing events like young, are getting them gigs and trying to get them record people you named your dad's name or I mean I wasn't, but I had a last name that they know I'm sure it helped, but also it's so funny to have a thirteen or fourteen year old kid calling and being serious that I'm sure Well, we're humor it booking them. Clubs, but like so here I'll, take that so like, for instance, when Murphy was in his first years. each player on us and he had a gig love near my house. Now this was a club that was called my father's place. It's a legendary place, our long yea, all the band played area, and I had and made a deal with the guy there. This kind of epic Epstein who on that club is, he was a giant guy. There would be pictures of ep in hot tub with girls of indeterminate age. I may do
promote concerts on weekends, for kid bans play for kid audiences during do you like on Saturday afternoon, We owe a dealer well yeah and but so as a result, when Eddie murphy was going to play at this club, I had a folk singer. Kid open for having the folks anger. Kid got booed off the stage I was sixteen temp grid and the vote. a boot office stage and It was a horrible night for him. Eddie came out and destroyed and I snuck backstage f words and I wanted to add- and I said, listen you should be making albums here. Atomic is more Michael's, didn't own everything right that the guys in essen didn't eddie was only a feature player. He hadn't yet fully explode. I'm a little club bright and I found him a drawback stage and I said edison we making rouses, gave him. The comic sly wax and I ended up with get out that my I woke me add in the middle of the night, and I end up working it out that they all met up the next
in eddie's. First, three comedy albums were like on my dad's thing, really yeah, and so at that point I then started feeling ok. Well, I m you know in some way be contributing season. this is my ticket- is what I'm doing well and with the guy I yeah, that's what I always figured. I always figured. I was just going to end up being in the music, like? I figured all I'll, be adding sugar producer there in an hour person. I know that I know that was a age is today in our within. So that's all
is the way in our radically that's it. So they get points you get points on the eddie, not a natty, but later I did, but not an edit. Why don't you dare to throw you a bone? Well, what I'd just tell you sixteen years of living in the big giant house and a lot of food on the day he took me to Don Pepe is a lot of sunday nights for pasta as easy as gonna. Give me my points, but you know what man you're so great at sixteen I mean I get to then go to the delirious, show right right and go sit there in the front, and I knew eddie and I had to bring my friends was that your first experience with comedy yet maybe I'm in love. No. My first experience of comedy day, time organ. My dad, we're really good friends dated knew that I liked I loved comedy loved Steve Martin. I was love if the comedy as a kid and that's probably why I was set up to get wow how different eddie wasn't away or like what a star at he was. Because I knew a lie I kind of like was around a lot of comedy, but when I was fourteen David's,
Eric, said: hey, I'm gonna bring in new york city tonight, there's a guy performing and a carolines and he's either going to. incredible heroin going downtown. The original us supper club he's either gonna, be incredible, he's going to be horrible, but either way he's a genius and you're gonna see something that was gilbert and it real it's like one of those things like seeing that made me understand the world and time because either the first time I met you is with heavy yeah well yeah at the comic the comedy seller mia
six years ago was a year of stairs in europe. This guy hang around av and they now is like a kind of dick to you. While you are asking me about we want yet. You asked me about movies like he was. Let go my from behind a screen render directory like a really what really I, what what? What kind of things and then the worst thing is when I said ones that were actually successor movies. That was worse for you, the first. You were sceptical when it went from sceptical as to why the fuck does he get that through those that we read that it was in areas? That is how you sign. I had met you before, but excise. I was there that night that you and heavy had difficulty with one another, and when you know you went long yes, but so I saw gilbert and then I was around comedy and I was the one who wanted to be a comic and couldn't quite get up the guts to do never tried it. I later I did. I did for a year and a half if you stand up yet for your no one was hurt. I miss that I did it. I didn't like it then after I'd already made all like tons of moon, you tell me you: did it a light? Forty yeah? That's when I did. What are you nuts, whenever I did it
you're too have not, and we can present during the weakest stand out you. I feel that that machine we can import of. She was like. Finally, fuckin do it. For god's sake, also, you did have on those things you know about it. You can do it because it hey and I had nothing overs and now you know that to get up stages. Now I hear about it. You're comfortable are that's really think, that's it. You I think that my guards are. You made. You made your money, you always had a few bucks you. There is nothing on the line and you know you got over the stage fright neuroses jokes, and what do you really think you're gonna talk? You know real. I really had a moment. Here's an avenue. I was really blocked. Writing solitary man. I was like half way through it and I was super block. The watched it that yes, I know policy movie that you took me fuckin for years. bali, a ballsy thanks and you know- and I felt you'd relate to its on me. I did and light
I felt you'd relate to that on both sides. Really I felt you'd relate to it as the sun, like as the do. You relate to it from janis perspective and from Michael's perspective, but let's go before we get to this I mean who I'm glad you did stand up and I'm glad you got out, but I am by the Guess you now you don't have any do what you can do it helped you I get some cried through. It helped me really breakthrough bunch ryan. It was the aged here because You're not going remaining idea guide him. I wanted to sing publicly for my whole life. I was petrified, but you have about you have to back up at it. I know I have spoken, but on the other day, when you're talking to someone in your pocket on the show about how you uncomfortable singing in public, but you ve done it- you ve done in the past, cast riper it's all very recent, it was a terror like I, I just broke that cherry like three years gone, gregg baron show where I just but it was an amazing thing to do because if you have fear, and you have desire to do something for you tire, wife and-
thing in your heart but they're just either just basic wall of fear that just break through that wall, and you know this is this. Is I'm here now and then it never goes back, but while never goes boy yeah I mean I was a horribly, that's the thing I was a crushingly blocked person till I was thirty. That was really the thing when I had to to to do to when you went downstairs, go downstairs and start. But what we do and you in the music business can I had I had. I done fine and amused business. You know I. Where do you go from eddie murphy, so where'd you gotta, go what you do you hear sixteen you, you have sign any murphy's daily, dad the big shot, and where do you I wouldn't say you know, and it was largely my own choice cause. Then you've been said about being right. You know you were made these movies. You had some bucks in your pocket. Always did I mean the truth. Is that because I made money from help, and I was twenty one which I'll tell you I didn't at that time. I didn't take might have money from anyone, but myself my what and I was another. Can other piece of it. You know any azured joyous yeah might well
who is my father too generous person, but I think it's you get to be earned adult doesn't mean my dad's, never said: hey come on a family vacation or you I wouldn't have known I whatever, but I mean I, my wife and I have like lived on what we do the whole time and it was really began. Audio in rio important to Mattawa yeah to live there we, especially when you come from a lot of money, because that kills people. What are you doing I have personal value system around that you know, Who knows how the hell you turn out yet have to do any of you know. I knew I would hate myself. Essentially myself if I didn't from a young age, just like go and figure it out, but the battle. So yes, I I went to college. I was always I was never a great student, but I did a lot of different stuff. So I went to a good school, not in court the talks which, like a good college, I lived over there? In summary, I would cotter jav? No, you didn't, I tell you it Larry.
the think I lived in a house tracy chapman lived in. She lived I believe you I mean I remember the how she lived at the end there. So I mean that was the the thing you know when I went to college. I will say that the long island part of my life was just incredible bubble right, even when you ask that question like I did have an awareness- and I was I had friends from every socio economic group that the whole time, but You are in a bubble when you grow up in the north or very specific man. It is a very specific thing and did you have to Lucy accent? Oil? it always mattered to me not to have it, but even at a young age surrounded by like I always was a read. You know like you. I always read everything, so I needn't read as a jap right. yeah. I read everything and I shall leave must have thought you must have run from being a jack. I'm sure
pictures of me wearing phila and stuff with your polo shirt turned up the collector, then Vanna I mean it doesn't. This is all, but now it's important. I work a pc, oh man, I went to that whole other like place, but in college I became very as people didn't. You know, I'm sure you remember the divestment movement when, africa yeah cause yeah the the colleges were invested in companies doing business in south africa know a bunch of us, especially these northeastern liberal arts colleges felt it was unacceptable. So I kind of was one of the two or three people who led that movement at mice and in doing that, meaning I organised, like all campus boycott classes to protest. It got speak, to come in. I was really like and at the front of that with IRAN, maybe were five or six of us who really like it. Did it, and probably even a bigger group of 'em, really radical,
as people who fought a protest, that everything can really only was in involved in that that was the one that matter to make. Is that your seemed egregious, but in doing that friend of mine and unimpeded so who I grew up with an also went to tops said you know, there's a folks winger you should get to play at this rally: you're, organizing yeah and that's when I saw it. That's what I went to this little coffee house that was on campus and saw tracy chapman play, and that was you know a truly at the fabric moment my entire my entire world shift and on its axis man. It was like it like in a movie crying everything the entire focus on my life. Up to that point one thing from the moment she walked on that stage and started singing for the next three years. The only thing I cared about was that everything changed and so you are a guy that was a socially active political, radical leader in any
tracy chapman. I remember now, and I remember going up sworn saying and we were never france by the way say my years earlier, two years older, I could bear she's two years older. I really do. You know she was ass. She was, breathing men, you think about it. She was every single thing that I knew deepen. My soul like I could never could never have lived or understood really the life's raised by a single mother, black cleveland, poor race, I had started around her when she was a little girl, like the so totality of what led to that and then just the extraordinary talent ability in the that she had and the voice the jihad and the ability to translate that experience in these songs and I really did I I I remember sitting there and it's interesting to me because you come from this, like you know your father's focus and was post the sixties folk thing
but like everything it seemed that he was doing came out of that. the relevance of folk music was gone, but you knew the history of it. I did so or rest so so some our another, you are transported to neo nineteen sixty five and you are in the middle of a political, struggle in a way, and they do. It was Waikiki your given the gift of of liberal, jewish catharsis. Yes, you know you're totally right. I was an end and I will say at an end and it became in it was just a man, italy clear to me that She was among the most gifted people walking the earth and I could not understand how our member states I walked around and went up to her and I, listen, I'm I'm here, because I want you to explain: it meant we were in a class together that some more
anton and we were sitting, we would sit next to each other, but we never spoke- and I said, hey you have to complete this rally. Here's what we're doing she said. Okay, well, yeah, and I said, but ah and I remember exactly said- and I said I said I ve- been managing bans in those thirteen producing demos and working in record companies every summer and and I really have worked. I said all I really have worked to be my own person but- you're so extraordinary that I really think that my dad can help you to and that we should find a way to do something together, and she said I ll pay the rally I was it an I spent two years. Five bring her around midnight, so I usually represented oh yeah, unrepresented anko indicated didn't want, wasn't ready at first said. Like I, you know. I think she would
She was maybe a senior and I was a sophomore. I was a sophomore for sure and that she said and she played the rally the next day, which was my year, the sanity test right, because I basically stayed up then I watched her the next day and I it was even better. I couldn't believe I mean honestly market, I'm talking about a revolution. It was those songs, not fast car, but it was talking about a revolution and baby. Can I hold you tonight all the songs from the first album half the songs of the first, and how the crowd respond. They well that's the thing that the meat it taught me as is so most valuable. Lessons are those those three. where's tommy things that to this day, give me an incredible amount of strength, because. She wasn't interested in in all this at first and my dad was an because I wasn't a great student and I so just easily distracted by all this stuff, and he was, like I'm sure, she's great go to school. You know anyone here, but this bullshit the college. He didn't graduate college and ruby scared to death. I wouldn't go
ray college, you he really wanted me to gradually had yet, but oh, I did a real record business thing, which was I went. I heard that Tracy had recorded for copyright purposes, songs at the radio station handcuffs. And I had a friend of mine walking into the radio station and he distracted the dj new and I stole the car. Said she you no radio car to deal. I stole the car I tabled, I ate tracks. I went in the back, nine copied the card onto a cassette and I put the cart back and then I had a cassette of talk about evolution. acoustic. He did a little dirty business. I did that and I took that back to new york. I flew back to new york and I to my father, like the next day away very soon yeah, because I had the tape- and I listened to it like that. I listen to tape one hundred times right and I I remain exactly? Where was I I I played form, and he just to my: credit at that time. In the record he was making than working here,
come again, dolly pardon and samantha he was making real pop records and go far away from this and what she did anyhow, He immediately said you're right. Iraq she's echoed, but it still took I would go and follow her would play these lesbian clubs all across new england. Go alone. I would get marked mercilessly by my friends at college. You know how to use your mother says and they would go up when will you to new Hampshire and I would want A room and I'd be the only guy and it would be in know two hundred women staring at me, and I am sure that I was still you know. I wasn't quite make appeals, but I look like a douche bag and and eventually overtime. We fucking door during this time. Yes, she would see what shooting at every I mean should be. I see what kind of smile like. Are you really you're really here like end and let me say I could barely talk. we were never friends, but she understood that I was
niantic about her, that I was telling everybody and trying to find a way to bring more, when you look back at it, What was the what was the combination of of your being your father's son in looking for a hit record and being moved by the power of this artist? What what was the role? No, I mean the question is great because it's all what led to me leaving the music business was ultimately all my sympathies All my sympathies were with the artist and I had to become. I instinctively every part of the process other than the moment discovery and making records was, I felt like a dirty and gross and involve an lying and the business did not exist. in any way to serve these artists Algeria sooner rising day. You know because, like you in leave my purse option a view which was which was off was
this guy likes to be around talent. Oh you mean the night. You met me not to say, will you ever whatever they like? You know that somehow or another, and it makes sense because your father there, you know whatever the message is that appreciation of it well was was personal data, I get somebody could express themselves a you know in a complete way in a year way either you didn't feel like you had that or you you. You know you, you just needed to be around that to feel call were to be part of something well yeah mean by books in music and movies worthy things that I and comedy those things were, the things that I gave a shit about right. That's what it is it sort of made you feel connected yeah, but it was also the you know. The thing Julia cameron talks about the shadow artist and the artist's way, which is that, but, but at that time I didn't look at that time. If you have asked me what I said, I'll never be the person who's gonna create the stuff
that's what I mean by tat time. There was no, but you know that I thought I did I I thought that the people who could do that were touched and special and no matter how much I wished, I could express it. I couldn't that's what I'm saying I that's who I was then, and it was too that torture by the way there's by white like if I read it, there's still some party that feels that well, I would say, no, no, there's, no part of it with a stand up. There's no part of it were. I feel like I'm. I mean I. I've written director produce thirteen move right. So I'm do I mean I do it so you're all good on small I know every day I just wish you know I wish I were every day. This is true. I wish I were better at it every day, but you said that you know in that process with her for those three years that you allow you I'll tell you that guided your entire life or that there is always well a hue yeah, because it's it something repeated itself, which is that
when we saw what. Finally, I got them together, We all met who you and you weren't how'd you x ray tracy jasmine. They did you. Did you keep it a secret that you had the tape. They know. I told her. I told her when she say she just I mean shit wasn't choose woman, a few words right, but she also pride in believe your bullshit for awhile. the whole time she didn't we. I mean the whole time this george guilty, if I mean guttering, the tissue wasn't like whose it's just like who's this fuckin. What is this? What is he care about this for? But surely I do believe that willing eventually we got together and then I. Went into a studio, tracy and recorded acoustic demos like twentysomethings twenty two sides and were after you and your father year, then we said: can we record them all at the moment or she? Finally relented? I mean it was. Did you fly up. Oh, she flew
yeah, he flew up to see her. He looked to see her for sure and she item I think immediately and probably more than she like me- he was the not conflicting thing you're talking about is he definitely on conflicted and he was right. We can make a record. We did this you're a great artist and will make a record. I was like you're the ceo, on the one hand, you're going to save the world, save the world and, on the other hand, but sign on like sign that I was signing the dotted line, because I see it. we'll split right for me, though, No, that then, then I would have said to you, and I would have meant that it was only about her but there is also this. This is interesting. like a dynamic that you know wig this was you know you had this passion? commitment? for musical artists in your father was a vehicle, but this was also you know, you're on your father's turf and you're doing a big thing. Well, yeah, but yes,
but to make it better girl. But to me this really big thing, but we have to remember where the world was that when we made these demos and then I d get her signed to a major label rakers my dad had at that time a publishing company and a small production company couldn't didn't, have didn't couldn't digital rack right? Couldn't we didn't a record an album. We demos and then went in shopped her for a label deal and these you in your debt? Yeah is what for me and my separately and together. We were because I've worked, because I was so interested in it. Like every summer I worked. I was always out watching bands. I knew people at every label because my father was it's funny you know the way in which he was incredibly generous to me about you. It of certainly like have been paid for college and law school and all that stuff, but the way was he would always
A lot of guys were successful. They want to smother the people around them and he would always like if I was going into a rumour into a world like go, do you think man make it happen. While you were going to law school. I later I went to law school yeah. I did a lot of shit. I graduated law school, but I never practised and, and but that was later. That was for a whole different reason. That was when I was new. I had to leave music and do something that was like real and I was going to go. I want to practice civil rights law. That was what I was going to do read more as these book a season for justice, and that book blew my and then right away, it was clear rules will this is no way to effect change, but I was- and am I just finished when a night- worth working full time and again at night, but it did the tracy lesson. get back to the thing that that I felt was ultimately such an empowering lesson, but miserable the time these an our guys would come up and women would come up to Boston, a trace. You would perform in front of three hundred people going crazy cause. She had built a real audience.
itself in new england. She would play all those songs, but that voice they would stand up and give her for on course, the an or person would almost have tears in their eyes and they would say to me, can I please meet her. I am so blown away by this and I would say yes, oh, come back meter. I'd walked into their car and they would say You know I can't signer and I said what do you mean? What does that mean that what I mean no one's going to play it? No one's going to It's amazing you this! This woman is the real deal, but I would like a cop I'm gonna have a demo, they all past, except for one person, the guy at elect record as the president of electric cars grass now and even Bob. We so then seen your college, making the record, that summer before senior year mean one other guy figure out who should produce the record, got rejected by tons of producers
I know a bunch of these guys. I would take them out and try to convince them and they all said like there's, never going to happen and how can this work? No one cares about this kind of music. We got this guy david kirschenbaum to Is it an everyday? They were fed axing me we were, he was recording an album in l, a I was in Boston. They would send me every day. The bass tracks and I'm a senior in college. Getting these tapes of this album being made. and giving my notes occur I wasn't one new and it now weird I never saw Tracy oppressed. only talk to the excursion member, What is your ear? What does your credit on their record executive produce? And I hope that our point on that so that at bouquets, so you get asked when I had the I mean on an album are asked for and got a point so, but so were you so you're a senior in college again these records and what's the lesson the lesson was that every week There's the album and presented to electra, and they say this is great and I remember it was a huge conference table and everything
persons stood up and said I can't it a plate on my format and none of the stores I sell tool will buy it. I remember my dad stood up and he said you guys all love it personally and they said yeah. I play my wife loves it. My husband loves it and he said then you're all out of your minds like what the fuck have you bought into goes to the random president, the record company, the guy who walked us back. My dad's, I was like around the corner and he walked his bag and he said your father's insane brian. If you sell fifty thousand, albums, you ve, won and started a career and done something important and beautiful, and never forget that and you don't think so. thirteen million albums worldwide and and it just the experts. I realise the experts don't know any better than I do and one's afraid and there scared- and they are we- specially when something touches that special place in them. Their instinct is to run from it, but that's it's weird, because what that means is that their instead, sting. Did we force instead about what they think people want the public
at their somehow insulated in unique in their emotions. Why you because all they do is work at the market. What selling whatsoever in what's out that is repeated itself proof so over and over and over the movies. To I'm I mean I've, I've told the story before, but I mean you know I except we're talking about now I mean this is deep history, I'm forty eight. I mean this happened when I was twenty one and twenty two and you know I left the music business at thirty, so the last eighteen years have been far away from it, but I will say you know: rounders was rejected that script by every single agency in hollywood and the day that then Harvey Weinstein bought it. They all called us and all wanted to sign us, and they all rejected us and said it'll never be a movie and it's not, and then it becomes this really cholera lesson is what the experts are fucking wrong, all the time they don't know the gatekeepers, the gatekeepers
they're just concerned about keeping their job as the gatekeeper yeah, as if you know that, as the person doing the thing it's very hard to not let it penetrate you very hard for it not to be wounding, went because, especially when you in asked so much in creating it hard and especially for young artists were trying and those people. I try to talk to all the time. It's like it easy to turn back and to change, mentally this, what the thing is that you do and to believe that their judgment is right because on her business card. It says vice president moron hears it says general manager, but in fact, most of the time scale for now and also its relative to your expectations. Well, I mean it's it's if you're just passionate about what you're doing
He doesn't necessarily mean it's like this has got to sell to everyone in the world, but it is worthy. Well yeah. I would never have said to you. Oh this album is going to sell ten minute. Over ten million cod, whatever near relationship with her. What happened to her career well, she ended up. I mean Nor can we urge you to that huge song, giving one reason that was a song we had demo together, although you all records now my dad's, I'm sure my dad had. I only was involved in the first one although songs that she and I recorded and like that I'd help choose which ones ended up being on some subsequent records, no man, we did not have any relief and she really I mean I- I saw her she deafened when she recording the second album I went to the studio, wants the producer and the same guy call me The last time I saw tracy was then so I was probably twenty four
and no other gratitude was there. You know it's. I will say this. My gratitude to her is so enormous because my entire life changing. Unless what I said to her, I feel that I think she felt she had lawyers and everybody made sure of it, but I think she felt somehow that why didn't she owner saw. You know why was there publishing deal? Why did we have it's an arena. I think she felt, though, never articulated this to me are understood exactly I've had to into it what her story? Isn't I've tried a couple years ago to reach out to her and said, like hey, let's meat and I still very much want to because I have incredibly high regard for her. I was absolutely you note you hurt by it for sure that I've spent so much time and energy,
in trying to get her, use it to the world. I never thought I'd. Think she ever knew tat out we involve there wasn't making it at first album the musicians no and the producer knows I don't think she ever knew, because I and it's my failing. I thought she was so many leagues and levels beyond me in terms of depth intellect very thought until areas that I can ever talk to her room the other than the sort of minimum income way say. I assure you know I understand what you're doing and it really important- and I want to help you so that all definitely that's like a community but I don't think she knows that, like you know, when they recorded talk about a revolution, they recorded it, you know ten beats. A minute to slow and- and I you know, got them,
on the phone and read them redo it and we me the track or them. Says where the seat like there's no way, because I was too scared to talk about it. I was twenty. twenty one years old I couldn't. I couldn't be out how to and she never responded someday. I want were somewhere this last time I saw was that that the studio in the parking lot and she rolled down her window and she smiled at me- and I said without here and I said thanks, I say: listen, you really, no matter what you know you, my last forever changed for having seen you. I'll, be forever grateful and she's. Listen, we changed each other's lives and I feel the same way about that that's just so that we had that moment as good. Yet you know it was a long time ago and- and I know I oh that whatever the narrative she has and her narrative may be correct. You know I can't
I will say that that, having been there to help do that and she, I found her way in some way with. Maybe I mean idea was you who knows what her in a way what what her idea of it was yeah I do it In so many ways, because, ultimately, having done that released made from having to compete with this idea of what my dad internet business and that I had to do it and it was enabled me to go. Ok, I that happened. I get it. And I ve no had a few more things but like they're in so many ways, but if you're asking me is Pardon me: is there a part, it still heartbroken. But what I can understand that what happens parking, I think, could be enough here. Deputy, expect I'm sorry said she I get out of my own up
I guess I expected as a grown up person now I would to know. The ways in which I let her now right. I would like to know what part of that wasn't me. Kid you about that, might just be you hear your own desire to confirm something It is a fundamental element in your personality of not thinking good enough shortly. There isn't it I mean I mean gratitude the big deal, if somebody is genuinely grateful, and even in that moment she expressed at you and you felt it Maybe she's transcended, whatever the hell, you need to feed yourself, a loathing shore by all that I like you're, doing this, because I always do this exact waiting for people but yeah that possible, but then so just as they are on a human level, this did happen. That was a really signify, in the thing- and I have you know,
it's one of the only things about which I have very unresolved feelings, because I've throughout my life, because I've ways tried to like own it. Where I was I've tried to like you know, the square accounts: yeah. I look I it sounds like you might be square, ok, great you and I am in whatever, like whatever away like a lot of times. Our emotional needs can be met because you are you you might be making something up here. Maybe she's can give a shit, I'm leaving in asia. Who knows? Maybe they like you, whatever you blew, what are you whatever you're something are about what effect you had a negative way or or where you would you failed her? They might Be your projections. You you're running on no evidence, though, it sounds like the last exchange you had with her. You shared, like you, know, a mutual moment of gratitude, yeah and then the but you're sort of like now that I musta with you. Why
yeah. I guess it's the desire, you know ignored as it's the desire, if Zita, that is the desire to yes to confirm worse, the worst self opinion or if the desire to be seen you know it's a desire to be sure of like seen yeah, but I also think that you might be what you're talking about your initial relationship with her, even though it was one sided, I mean you were consumed with this person. Yes, that sellers, so so so I mean he, you know whatever it was. You know, heartbreak is relative. I mean those feelings that you had a year: they they were unrequited in away way. Yeah! Yes, for sure They were my men. and I guess norm and then the fact that I guess it's this right there everything I said to her would come true, came true and and answer that I would add some part of me- wants to be able to just school like
understand that on balance are gone was this bad for it like unbalanced, is bad for her or was it good for What would your dad have done? I mean he would say they always break your heart here that move the fuck ahead and they're going to have right there are. There are going to break your heart, but was built on bill slightly differently. So you were in the music business for another eight years, nine years you would you do like you quickly and are four different label and see where the guy, when I found the things- and I found a couple of things, it became It's always sometimes ahead of it. So, like I said, David grader was the first american deal. I signed five for fighting to their first american to like a deal john and drowsing, and five are fighting to get Josh. Casson salt cock up. Only an album set aside and then and then, as I wrote, of no kind of like advanced up the rags, guy who I brought in brought tangible to me.
And we signed them together, and that was a big deal thing. It's a tough business because, like you know these ain't, our guys they have their run. So if you weren't going to gun him for executive- or you know some- it's brutal has but now that the part that bad is that, especially then the artists were treated so she italy, and that it was what would you impossible from it, was really difficult to marshal the forces for me to to get them all to understand what was really special about these artist, so david gray, who then two years later sold five million alms to him. I couldn't keep my word because I told him I flew around the to sign a might hurt his little record that he made in england and I spent a year and a half like go and have when you're going to read it and get out of this little deal. Come make a record america, and then I couldn't keep my word, and because I couldn't get them to put the records in the store I couldn't so, but but I mean why
started to happen. Mark year was the when my son was born, which was really when I was almost thirty or my son was born. I realise that I wouldn't this is good. I journals a lot then so like actually. No. This is what I was thinking it's. It sounds almost to pat, but when I realized was a miserable I dont want to be the guy telling somebody to rewrite the course and then helping them rewrite the chorus, and then tell him? Oh, that bridge is really the second verse and the second versus the bridge. I realise that I would not be able to tell my kids that they could follow wherever there in life was, if I wasn't, and I knew tat if I didn't find a way to become somebody who did it, who wrote and made movies that
have. I would never get over it moment our dream, but that was the dream initially yet other the music thing was just sort of like a right dad my friends are right. I, when I realized, was every person it wasn't. It's not the thing you said about talent. All my friends are writers want to be around people who wrote, and I was that I was the guy who people would give their stuff too, to make better and hey rouser. How can I fix it when I added, but I was here but what I can give five pay right. Fibre ages and I can re thing out so in essence, the lead the opportunity like tracy chapman event was was innate because you grew up it and in it served a lot to the sort of honour, your father on yourself level, the peace in the fields you did where you had to do, and- and you know you realize you can be your dad on some level, even though that business was your business and then You found this. You knew this other thing was gonna idea I realized
I just really I was miserable. Like I just hate myself, I went to law school because I felt like all these people in the recorded. As you know, I want your fuckin idiots, and also I'm wasting my talent and I'm wasting my brain. And nobody reads and nobody's noted com. the world and they don't care, and you want so I went away school where a lot of great people. I was at night, which was awesome at fordham at night, because you have a lot of cops who were trying to better them. I give her a crew of people at night and it's a great law school so, but still I had this other thing that was like eating me alive. I'd, never smoked cigarettes in my life. I've never had substance, you no longer no substance issues. I started fog smoking at the start, smoking to twenty yeah, I remember sitting in my office in the regular business smoking a cigarette miserable. I you know new this article.
call me from the middle of the country the records worn in the stores they're playing at in store without the records there are. You are dealing with that shit, oh yeah, because they were. I would even give you words: these people come and sign on I'll, protect you and all, and then you can't and is helpless, but all that was the sort of like outer layer stuff. I knew that I had to see if I was the thing or I was the thing and that I would never be happy if I couldn't figure it out in chase it. I would never forgive us and as at thirty or forty third, thirty and that's when he said the wife I gotta do while she'd been saying to me for years She was like you're supposed to be writing and making movies and making tell him you're not supposed to do this now editing fan smoking in heading four high out. I want to get what are you doing we're in about records? Will you give why and I went to my friend, who has been my best friend since we're fourteen years old and are a year and a half older, and he had been writing and trying to do it. He had written a now.
later got published. He I knew he would send me screenplay sometimes of people, and I said I really. Let's do this thing, let's figure out how to write a movie, and he said all right- we're going to read these Thank you now read the art he gave me the artist way he's a duty, artist, no said field, and, unlike why hate that shit? Now none of that I read the artist's way: cause it'll help you get on blocked and then I had also started playing poker all the time, but in l a I walked into a poker club in new york looked around and it was the second one of those like moments. Like I looked at it, I called him in the middle of the night and I go really the the third thing like that professionally I walked in looked at the poker room. He was as illegal poker room. I heard the if the people were talking, I saw how they dressed here, and I was like this is a. How has no one read the movie right and so dave, and I just met every morning and wrote that script you have a poker problem, almost any other gambling is really bad for me. If I start to play blackjack or craps
lose everything I'll ask you for your money, I think I'll go. Take my I'll max out my thing, if I only say programming, everything's, fine skill set to poker. It's different, but became obsessive about it, and so you know, then we did have this miraculous. Of got reject But we were rounders here in that, but you know it Getting to make that movie, which really did start documentaries about it. It really started the poker boom and although the movie wasn't ahead in theatres, you know it became a real natural thing that matters to a group of people. Sort of like You know men, forty five and under really really give a shit about that movie, and then I will. was able to to do this thing. Gotcha is eight as a right that was eighteen years ago you wrote a bunch other movies, then road, other movies and produced and directed when I know but like these. Some of these are big movies like it. When you do a movie like walk ta
yeah? How much time do you spend with the original walking tat? Was a for weak rewrite ed and nobody like oceans? Thirteen, that's a real! You know that David, wrote that movie near more onset of that movie every day right and yet I was in coming. That was the big move. yeah. That was an incredible thing to be able to be apart of and to do And now that opportunities and what was at the third in the series of the second third side, franchise already yeah, I was too it must be fun to be able to write for the characters, has a stand giant pressure. Writing it, because the only we would have if we didn't have writer. that they wanted to make. We would have been words blamed us, was that your first real big money movie as a writer. well in what way means getting paid a lot of money. I know we got started getting paid a lot soon after rounders yeah yeah, because because you getting hired. the world, works. If you, if you write a movie that people regard and then
as like cool swagger. He dialogue in their mind hollywood's mind then they'll snipe do that. Well, then, then, what you to do that on their big movie, but will pass you get some money half of armed yeah, but I I will say that this is I dunno that this is good or bad is just true half the movies. We made her any movies, and we few different time sort of like I was able to amass some savings and then use those savings to lecture My family didn't have to change their quality of life near or making a movie for free for two years. So, like a few different times a couple times, we and an order be able to make a movie has not made any more go for making a lot of money to making no money for a year and a half. where you at you at everything in order it wasn't like your no. I mean no at the end of those know, it's very scary. At the end, at the end of that period of time and a cup
the different times we had delight scramble to go like ok. I got no get the end remain. I know say there: their item, summertime retirement, my money, I my kids college do you couldn't get, but I had no savings left and right that public powers like us, you know you ve, got I've won by the but is also I pay you, your passion enough, it's amazing thing to commit to a movie began, you know, when I hear people talk about it, I dont have the nerves, for it you know tat tat, to have a vision to execute division and stay in it for the years that it takes to the vision, a reality to me. It is wanting any causes anxiety just to think about it. To have that much to have the floor, to commit to it. Yeah, I'll say that the committing to it to get to
to get lost in doing that is the greatest. It's like such an incredible. I guess at every step of the way, especially with something like solitary man. You know you got the idea being that the story, then he got the script and then you get somebody like Michael Douglas attached to it than ever at every turn. But yes do what I mean writing it took four years and I was miserable in the middle of the night: couldn't figure it out and what we want in Europe it was the way a couple of things I want to say we just won the thing you said before. You said two things that I think are are not exactly true. One which really is annoying is that tat. There was nothing at stake when opening stand up, because that for you to say that when all you judge people honest whether they actually done it or not, is bullshit because there nothing else in the world. You ve said it doesn't matter what fuck. You have made you're standing on the stage and bombing, and I it four nights a week like I did it every night what I meant by that nine away to misunderstand me is that there there's a difference between
You know and as you did with the music business, not necessarily quite the same, but when you go all into something- and there is nothing behind you is differ. but I didn't know. I will say this. I was that I was so I'm I led all the time in that's why, as you know, I do this park has now the moment and I just don't calculate so I led by like me something but going to a movie like, I would never think about the room, applications of it all I think about is the whole pursuit for me- is to be authentic and to be comfortable. My skin every Part of the way has been a journey to get to like you know, UK is to get like my ok am I being exactly what I wanted to be yourself, you am I being what I want to be there and so until I did stand up and new and put in like eighteen months of real doing it, I didn't know, I had to know, can I do it? Could I Actually, hang could have
toddlin and clarified, chris rock and crisis. and it went. Ireland was in the back of the club watching me knowing he, though, he's the guy look at this. Well because you know he was like look at this deal and then, when he came up to me and he's the one that guy was so difficult and came up to me and he was brilliant and so fucked up and brilliant, and you know he was like. Oh you can fucking do this. I hate you, you could really do it and that's what became for the government and dance soda and all those duty was because, like soda tells the story he was sure, was a construction worker until gladdened ta. No, I they didn't know at first, but I did these sort of like that. Reconstruction work at the first reading, I knew you well I get it. I get the warrior approach and I get that you had something to prove to yourself and others, and I had to like go and do no, but I remember, but still hard for me not to look at you as a weekend warrior on some level I'm glad you did it yet, but first of all
anyone who actually know a weekend warrior or somebody who went to three open mics and a couple of bringer shows alright. Alright, no isn't there tell me: is there not a difference between showing up wednesday at twelve ten at then, with nine drunks, three of them scandinavian in the autumn. And having to figure out how to get through that with like your dignity, yeah, but but there's some part of you that wanted to beat the shit out of yourself in order to find yourself, and that was a fine venue to do it yeah, but at every can be anybody. You know, I'm not, I'm, not I'm not trying to I'm not taking what you experience, but I mean the way you're framing it is that you know all because the terrorists are. I guess this is what a point is the battle for me. Actually get to being an and the reason I talk about it. If I hear from you every day who were sitting in whatever their job is they have this fucking dream that they dont chase down, because they and this was something you had to do. Have you talked to haiti? He would say to you that when I was
I would go with him to fuckin seller when I was twenty two years old right so intimately in or out take with a view to the seller every weekend for ye for a year. We for like a year. I will you just told me that your dream is to be a movie writer or it will get, but the tube actively creative and giving our taught, you know, I've been ignored, it came to was yes, I have to. I have to well to do this thing and write movies, but I had written all these movies with a partner. My best friend dave, I hadn't written a movie alone and still have The question: could I really Could I really get in there and this thing goes it with that movie with super important me to write and when I was at the point in the of it, where I couldn't solve it, something said to me: I'm. Your still scared, and the reason you still scared is there, the eu than most terrified of in your life in all this stuff is, can you
and on a stage in the microphone and get through it, and I was like back and I had to fuckin do Hey that's, I know not you and I respect that. I'm not not taking your experience awakened his heart would know. But what I'm saying is working. I did morning radio for a year and a half. I would never call myself of a radio guy. That their dire you ve never heard me say, I'm a comedian. I would never say that I agree with you. I ve never seen alma comedian yet, but you need to do it. I'm alleging here that's in white, but was too like not only because it seems to me a name watching the film that nor- two to guard, any sympathy for that character. That it had to be so true and the thing that you're talking about the fearlessness in the face of of a failure to the point of almost socio pathology that I was in Instrumental in that character. That somebody who is, who is it was fear, was to the point denial and in on a bill in the inability to change well that that character? in that movie
I mean came out of some people that I knew and of anger and I started writing it out of anger and will be meaningless I start writing it out of anger, because someone I know very well. Their father is very much like not not my dad network is, is very much like the guy and did the thing at the opening of the movie, which is he was going meat has grown up daughter and has grown. Daughter said, hi dad and he said, don't call me down in public as it makes it too hard to pick up women. and when I heard that story I got so enraged that and would say that to his daughter and like heard her in that way deny his you know, didn't I his own daughter, because when I called dad that I wrote the first twenty pages in an almost exactly as they are in the movie, just in a fever the next morning.
and then had these pages staring at me, I knew that if I could get that character going for a whole movie maybe some but yeah, but in order to do that, the weird thing about it is that even me and the familiarity with that character mean whether it was your friend's father or not. That characters that character, that character on some level is every man if he had game. So the thing is: zat innately that character, is sympathetic and should not read that way to me anyways, and I think that that the challenge it seems to me that you are up against was was making that guy human, yes you're being able to have him talk in a way that you would take the right of them. David David, I directed it together and you know we were incredibly lucky that Michael, He did a move because Michael has so much charm and is able to
for granted growing and he's only gotten better, and I guess part of it also was more parts in the movie had to be funny, and maybe I just had to get up on stage to know that I can make it fun know if you had to get up on stage to break through a wall for yourself yet to know that damage action just to know I could live through that rejection the rejection of nine people at twelve ten in the morning. For some reason it takes a very three for in those moments, seems all important to the entire world, and why is that set on our agenda and watching because a ghetto without I once but I once bond in front of like three hundred people- are carolines early and was not nearly as bad as the nine like what you mean. You will manage it, are you christ, you can't charm? Nine people right has the ninth evil one by one. You just can't you just can't fathom knew of that little ability to connect sometimes it's easier to bomb in front of the big audience. I think, because like you know it it it's easier to gauge, because you got all these people type, that's not quite enough therefore a room this size with nice.
people you knew almost feel your heart connecting to them. So right there yeah it's, not it's not as big a fascinating to get its fascinating. How quickly you can turn mean onst its really fast. Yet that's enacting get but fastening thing to do to see. You know that This is that you got the deck the point is you go and we as precision and that's the thing about standards are given due whatever the fuck you want to, and certainly no added at twelve ten spot on a thursday or tuesday? It's like you, an italian, the door guy. You want to be a comment that you doing writing wrong. You can. Where do we go up onstage and look at people go fuck, you fuck you, and now you might get hit, but you could do it now the amazing thing is that when the people there, that you know, then that I knew then that I did open might have then you know there to fame people in the open mike who became I mean you really liked up the connection you have with the people who were in those clubs it it's like a
intensely. It's all. It always is even if it's only four day there, because it is the life is so specific, and you know it andy the commitment to it and the sort of thing inaction of the weird Selfishness of all of us- I I ii were also close in some weird way, it's very tense. You know it's an intense and intense thing, and also the other thing that I that you said that I think is not his only af right when you say that I struck you, someone who want to be around talent, and I know what you mean by talent, the wicked Business use that term it more it's simple and more innocent than that, which is that I I am, always searching out like genius and I won't I am constantly and in trying to push myself to be better and also win
someone's work we it's not tell. I mean I I I don't. I don't give a shit about fame, meaning famous people or about meaning people who are regarded by the world I care about. If I think that there special rate and that their work is amazing that I want to be around because I want to like learn from that. I want to look at it I want to engage in some way and be two. Come on it's. Why do my podcast? Because I whole premise of it is that You know I'm fascinated by how remarkable people process big moments, bigger, real, good or bad, really normal people that its people who accomplish remarkable things. how do they handle crushing disappointment or huge success and move forward Just fascinated me: what is it why? What would you feel like you're, lacking.
I don't know what I'm lacking when well, I don't know I am When are you gonna know, you never know man you know all you can do- is try to keep going right like Can you really know what it would be like to do? Something really beautiful, and then I realize just do the work like at a certain point. I realized I'll just do to your best. Like do the work? Don't don't don't worry about that, but I still like having the conversations I still like hearing it. I still part of me probably still thinks you know it kills me the day David foster, whilst I madame twice but kills me that he died, I feel you know end never got to really like here it from him like what What does it feel like to be that you know what is it really feel like. to be the smart enough to be that deep and that's me
I personally have felt a little too much by that pursued is still here. I'm that's what you when you're a writer you're in characters, even your trying I mean. Think about what it is, I'm trying to work out in that stuff, but it I've been trying to touch some experience in it in a way that different. Then you expect two or understand it? Walter you that movie, solitary man of, took a couple, a turns I didn't see coming in their very bold, but The ending hezbollah, ending yeah thanks. I I remember, writing the ending of it and knowing that are never going to change it, and there might have been one day. It was great because Dave Levine, my partner, is one of the greatest guys and I mean to me: you know the best guy I know and the before we started, did you look at that ending and go like well? Not a lot of people are going to see this movie. No, you know when people were refusing to make it right when people rejecting it
would it change the anyhow. It would a big deal for the move I know, and but we said no over and over again and then our member states, thereby soda who produced the movie, helped us got Michael those. He said, don't shoot, he wasn't it'll be there when we shot the end of the movie and he said, listen, you are going to have a huge instinctive paul to protect yourself and shoot an ending that is different from. do you're really want to cover to not, if you shoot and other ending someone's gonna force you to use it, don't do it. I remember it being there on the day and the assistant director coming up and going do you guys want to just have him go and I'll tell you, my insecurity rose up, and I almost did it and Levine said no fucking way, the enemy wrote this beginning were shooting, that's it was it at all, but we did because then I am. I know I
I knew that that's where that had to sit, and then I got really well protected by my partner and I and was able you know, was able to keep it that way. But. I did, I will say I felt like from I felt like you would get something out of it: the innocent of movie for everybody, I felt you were just bad and while I I do and I'm and we're not going to have any this is the end mark man ellison, so I gotta say I'm happy to be here. This has been I I love the show and you ve done good. You know you ve done a really good thanks, mandy digit how's, your experience you there I was how I feel is matter the our marriage mere? I know nothin, you say it doesn't matter how we feel it only matters that we did not. I know that you wanted to do it now and I in I inspired you somehow that what was your dearer deputy f experience
is really good. Are there any coffee mugs? Do you have any more snuggling? Your mug is alright, alright at it. I just think the souvenir all right good talking to you I see that he's got his bag. Has I got my bike? Has interview meal of interesting. I like that. I go on good attack, anyways anyways, If you find that common ground that mailing list, because I'm gonna be got some common up, my share with you some just coffee go up over there. We the comment yet the app of greater the premium app stream, all the stuff
ever right now and I I
I yeah. Boomer lives.
Transcript generated on 2022-09-17.