The guy or edward through this. How are you what the fuckers, what about bodies, what the buccaneers, what the bottlenecks, what the fuck canadians, what the fuck enacts as I am close to Canada? This is more. where- and this is my show deputy- have welcome to it today on the show independent filmmaker Joe Swanberg, the amazing Joe Swanberg, who I couldn't be more cited to have on the show his recent films include linking bodies and happy christmas that when, with annex drink and landed dunham. I thought it was a a stunning movie several of his movies in it, and I love them all. This is true in depend, filmmaking at truly a low budget, and this

why does whatever he wants and he's got a great sense of of cinema and a great sense of of aesthetic as a as an artist he shot his last film on sixteen millimeter film as a choice, love it love him great conversation, those those yoda. Those movies I mentioned are available networks, but just wandering- and I will talk shortly. I know it sounds a little different. I am currently in at the window, in a hotel room in rochester new york, I met a holiday in express classy, overlooking a bank it's saturday, so that bank his clothes, there's a parking lot. sort of inner, not really strip mall situation, but it is a more I not on events in it if its industrial situation, but it certainly I am. I am sitting here, serve caddy corner to a small more with a red robin there's immobile gas station with a duncan doughnuts within it just across the street

and, as you know, have not been drinking coffee lately, but when in the east I will do as easterners do I will drink the duncan doughnuts coffee and that combined with suit of fed the good kind that you get behind the counter? So the duncan down it's an issue. A veteran have given me somewhat of a crack, like buzz without all the sweating and bad smells. I dont consider this, relapse. And anyway I do have a horrendous cold and I am entitled to caffeine as an american. So that's what I'm doing, I'm wearing sunglasses in my room, looking outside at a at the clouds breaking apart, it's very exciting to be in rochester or upstate new york. This time where the people are coming out of their caves for the first time in four months I am very happy. I do not live in a part of the country where

where seasonably you are pushed to the limit and you may kill yourself or your family. That's an those things or are thought of in those things become options when winter is this oppressive, as it has been for much of the east coast this year at my heart, goes out to I am then, but I am glad I'm here like the sun is shining in and there is still some snow thawing, so I'm getting a little taste the winter just enough, but I do miss the winter. I actually miss digging my car out of the snow, I'm this fighting the authorities because you're not away allowed to park on the street it during a snow emergency. But yet your car is buried and you have to unearth it. You have to unbearably it. You have to two to find your car within the snow bank to try to move it, see you don't get cited for for being part of the snow emergency, although being park. There is illegal the little things I miss about these.

Coast, I saw I'm doing warm up shows, though they are not booked his ad I'm just booked here at the club at the comedy club. The proprietor here mark is a tremendously proud of his club. This is a a genuine comedy club folks up here in rochester. It is a a eighth, a box of a room not much on the wall, and it is, it is spectacular, it's just a it's the raw goods, it's the real, deal and our mark abolition the due date, dad that manages to placed very probably a lot of guys in women come up here. To do the stand up in its got sort of a reputation is being a stand up, stand a comedy room there aren't that many in the country anymore. You know when you have corporate uncommon clubs to sort of player. A real

a gritty comedy club. You know it's not it's not as a it's, it's it's appreciated, it's a great room and the guy runs a great room and we had great shows last night we're doing the shows tonight, but I his tier I'm just here in rochester and I'll, be honest with the. I have never been in a part of the country where I have no compulsion whatsoever to the regional cuisine, I usually I look at it as an excuse to eat badly whenever mini part of any part of the country. The offers up anything unique, really, the only thing they have appeared that their proud of me, I'm not well I'm in rochester. So what you have here are are these things called garbage plates and I think I might have discussed them. I there's some sort of holdover from the depression era, but it's just a plate of horrendous food and even when people, even local people like yeah, all the all there like there's this place, called nyc tahoe hots and for some reason I think it has the hots name.

certainly do maybe with with the hot dogs or links or whatever, but every restaurant every other greasy spoon in this area has the word hot sign it there's empire. Hearts is jos, there's frank arts, there's Jimmy's hearts and what whatever this all hearts, but the garbage plate I just read directly from the wiki and then sorted go into what experienced last night, the garbage parties accommodation to sweat. Of cheeseburger, hamburger, red hot white hearts, italian sausage, chicken tender fish, fried ham, girl, cheese or eggs, and two sides of either home prize french fries, big danger, macaroni salad. On top of that, our options of mustard laid alone, onions, ladled on or proprietary hot sauce. with spices and soil we simmered ground, bethought, pulverize ground beat made viscous into a sauce with spices. that they dump over and they served through a piece of bread on the side. Now

Any of that sound good to you, I mean it sounds good if you want it, maybe if you're you haven't eaten in days or food is, is sparse or if you're completely shit faced, and you just need to carb the fuck out by people Well, now he's sitting with the mark and a few of the people that work at the club last night cause. I wanted to get some neat, though I could get a plague garbage plate over it. whatever hearts and there. Explain to me what a garbage plate is cause you you, you sort of have your own plate when you grow up here. You know what you want. Either you get the you get the hamburger patties, you get the you can get the max out in the big beans are to serve cold and the potatoes, their home, fries and just laid alone. Is these simmered onion wait along the mustard wait, awhile that fuckin hot sauce, and there too, driving it, threw me and I'm like there's no part of me that that is going to eat that where's the art in it. It's not like bbq. It's just like it's just shit food stacked up

and covered with goo. I just couldn't do it and then all the more like an you're gonna get diarrhoea that there is right. That is part of it. That's part of the experience like you eat. This you'll have the shit's tomorrow, but you know Then what then, why do you really like offer us? We permit? One guy says it's worth it worth the eat that so you grow up Something is no end of what you put up with coming out your ass just to justify that nostalgia, that comfort of of eating a boost wait, a shit that you grew up with. Now I don't want to be condescending. I don't want to be rude to people enjoy nice garbage play worked, I'm sure this. But this is the type of food words There is no high end, there's no one! That's right! They there's no gore may garbage plate. Do you know what I'm saying but who knows tonight? My entire attitude? May change I may be new coming out you next thursday, with

A celebration of garbage plates in in who knows who know that it's all possible You, men, every time I ve been to new york, the last five or six times just been shit, whether I just I am looking forward to the on going to new york- and I am looking forward to has taken a walk for blocks of a saga and having a bowl of hop borscht like an old jew. That's that's what I do when I go to new york and like I need to go some please re where I'm comfortable, where I have some comfort food, I don't even want to go to the comedy cellar. I don't even want to do. I only want to do anything I go. I got some, two things I gotta do and I'm going to have these four shows here. What do I gotta go bust? My ass for and you know, go, do a fifteen sec fifteen minutes at new york, for I Does that mean that I'm getting all does it mean? I give a shit anymore? Folks only be ass with the autonomous magic number is, but I'm tell any man if I hid it. If I hit them number. If I win the lottery, I hit the magic number.

fuck you money, I'm not one of these people that is going to hang around and keep coming back, keep coming back to prove they're still got whatever it is that I have. If I hit the magic number In iran, or I make it too to fuck you money land, I'm going to take a trip perhaps forever I this fantasy, righteous throw my phone into the river whatever river. Perhaps the ocean just throw my computer away and just you know, walk off in just like park, my car along the side of the road and and have a bag with a with a few legal pads and a couple of the pens I like, and I just I just head out, perhaps I should bring some supplies cause. I imagine I'd be abandoning my house as well. Perhaps be a sweeping bag, an attempt at that that accommodates one or two people, and I may be one those little burning

I can boil water and make soup and not just have that and in the knowledge that I have some money saved and that's that's. What I'll do I'll be I'll be a hobo just by virtue of the fact that I have no idea what to do with myself, but I know I don't want to do anything anymore. Is there any shame in that? Don't freak out it's not happening tomorrow. That's just a fantasy! Isn't that pathetic? That's a fantasy is to say walking away from everything that that defines a responsible life and and just having a a traveling, kerosene burner or little sterno burner that I can make some soup in and when those ridiculous pots that you can snapshot and eat out of and also cook in, that's my big fantasy. How can anyone get in touch with marc marron? I dunno you'd better check the trails, look at the little books where

and on the trails out freak out day, one or two through thy son animal bigger than me that bit that europe would be over side. The brother we show appear, you know. Rather, we is one of the powerful and a source of the morning, dr time, radio going back a couple of decades, maybe almost three decades, when the originals, the brow We show got in and did the one on one with wiesner he's a classic man class. ic radio dude he's got the pictures from all the different times of him in all for errors. You he's gotta, be in his sixties, but he's got those pictures of war. you, know party and was fun and hanging out joe washing Kansas in my book jimmy schubert, you can't it's weird no, the old dead, the old demons, the old warriors, the the the guys it lived they were still around and get it

a conversation with him, as I go yeah that due to see our right, there goes the live, make it yeah that back in the day, shit get more intense. As you get older people drop in, you know, ways is still alive and I'd never met him before, and that is a good time is a good time Well, it's a I I really enjoy talking to this guy, just swanberg. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. I I just I just and to be a very earnest, very smart, very unaffected guy that does exactly what he wants do, what the medium he has chosen Why would I find that so compelling? I guess, similarity. You know by term, but I like his movies, I mean there's there's a lot.

movies that are called independent movies. But this guy really does independent movies and he does them within a sort of courageous aesthetic like he takes chances and he kind of pushes the medium a little bit and and he's very smart about it and and he's the dude who's making the choices. And it was just great to talk to what I would consider a real artist of of of cinema. You're doing it the way he wants to do it, and- and like it's just rare that I I'm, I meet a guy that to that I connect with as quickly as I connected with Joe and and and and and and wake as much and respect his art. So so please enjoy this conversation with me and Joe Swanberg, and also I before we talk to a to Joe DJ. Copley has been doing some bumper music for us and here's what he did with some of my guitar noodling that he pulled off of the end of one of the wtf three

gently and and sort of remixed it and put some stuff behind it. He's on twitter, his web puppy, forty five, if you want to check out his stuff but but now we're going to talk to Joe Swanberg so so enjoy the you have a well stocked europe. Definitely like that. If you went into my basement, the fridge has: did you see? Did you shoot happy christmas in your house? Yeah? That's your house! That's my house! Yeah totally! That's the basement! the tv based media absolute, and it was like that when you guys bill by the previous owners here,

this mood in who had lived there for how long fur, along ass time, like we bought it from a ninety one year, old woman and her grandparents built it. So it's been in that family and because I could Keeping that's like that. The original tiki craze says like the fifty early wave. He was a g. I mean it's that first wave when, when they actually like for the first time, went to the a polynesian islands and stuff? They were fighting the right out there. and then they brought all that stuff home and americanized it and like the kitchen, is weird and became popular right. Definitely, the ten has gone through waves of popularity. a car came back kind of canopy in asia. It was always sort of like of the year, the betty page, her car yesterday, area of each other's eyes. It tiki think, ease and pin up right It was also some like your kind of mondo film stuff around that serve to write and tired she had yet. So I tell you buy old house. You grew up in chicago, very I didn't I

I moved around my dad was an engineer, so I kind of moved like an army kid, even though we weren't military, an engineer or a c I've had I've talked to some people have engineer fathers like what was that mean they I mean what did he do specific while he worked for a company called johnson controls, which is like a big, engineering firm, I never quite new. I mean I think he did a lot of different things. I just like new. He work for johnson country and I knew that we moved like every two years funny how many people attacked you they're, like they, don't know whether there will only also why haven't I ever asked if I would raise the right lazy arrive on this afternoon, but we just walk me through like what what are you doing when we lived in george? What was happening in california oversee? What did you walk into the way you have? where'd you go. I don't even know Weird right. Maybe I air something better doubt, age we produce is also speaks to have geike out pathologically selfish. We all are yours, I'm sure that's a guided show.

up until now, we have to listen to any exact. Brings money totally like he's. The law, he's man, you literally the man. Was he a good guy for sure yeah yeah, you seem pretty well just yet. I like, when I think about it. Now, the more people I mean I the normal list like most healthy childhood. I could imagine my parents are still married to each other, the total. love with each other. We have two younger brothers. We always were fine yeah. I mean it was just like a really I'm, unlike super well adjusted to whatever being an american, it yeah, sure and other places I'd be like, by like for living here right now, unlike straight the middle baby then totally a normal guy, but I wouldn't I dunno what that means. I could be wedges or other plays as a well adjusted american people be like what is this

break. Well, you know, like a you know, probably have lay capitalist tendencies that wouldn't like be cool other plate, lower nightmare. I think I think that's tempered by your career choices, maybe ears, but you know I'm into buying stuff that going somewhere else work I want to. when a house? Other cultures are not intellect private ownership in that kind of way lines? And I think that yeah, I guess so but I mean by you, gave it seemed. I got a reasonable house. Definitely it's a very okay. So what what else did you learn about the history of that house? He so they did the tv stuff in the sixties and then According to the neighbour, I live next door to like a seven year old, dude who's who knew them really well. So he's mostly, The history of working class neighbor had totally and still I mean like the neighbors on both sides are really awesome. They know everything about their house plus my house,

Like my wife and I have learned how to be homeowners from our neighbors right like when I have a problem, I can either call my dad who can try and talk me through it on the phone or I can go, knock on res door next door and be like I don't know, what's going on here, like there's wire all over my back porch and he's like, well. You probably have a leak under the thing. Let's like I'll go, get my stuff, let's dig it up and then I watch him. Do it and then the next time I don't need to go knock on his door. I'm like okay cool ratio me how that happens here like I had this like I had this like there is on puddle, forming the garden over there and, unlike in smells bad in any way and I said to my neighbors out there MIKE. What do you think that is it's like? Nothing gets shit, water yeah what does that mean a moment where you realize I no one's gonna fix days. Isn't it That means will hear you I got. This is my progress. Somebody better fix this new right now anyone's such above kind of charge there. They had so you didn't grubbing words grow mostly

every two years you will, I would say I grew up mostly in georgia that was sort of place during the big formative years for me and land no augusta and then kingsland two different times. Faster and then I moved to Afghanistan, alabama and then to kingsland georgia, but the south in the mid west, we're sort of back yeah and then and then weirdly. There was a two year period where I lived on an island called kwajalein, which is in the pacific ocean. It's part of the marshall islands, and that I was the middle of sixth grade to the middle of eighth grade, and then I moved to illinois and I've been in illinois. Since then Why join quadling yeah? We don't you David Jonah. Why I do I? Actually you It was only when I was older, I'm not sure what my dad was doing every single day via by johnson controls in other bit. They bid on these military contracts. Johnson controls one the contract for a two year period, where they did all the facilities, maintenance, and you know I'm sure, like oversaw the upkeep of the buildings, installing air conditioning systems,

whenever stuff needed are up in arms and then they and then raytheon, underbid them, and then all the johns controls people's moved and all the raytheon people moved through the subcontractor yeah. It's like a bug not military contracts were not weaponry, not weaponry. I don't know, maybe johnson controls does, but my dad wasn't doing that. And now the island. Here's what's up with this ireland, which I learned till I was at the door and then there's like. I wonder what I doing on question for two years, what they were testing the peacekeeper missiles so they were firing them from. I believe LOS angeles like blanks, into the eight or quadrant as an eight all necessary shaped like a boomerang near they were shooting in their engaging like accuracy and like tracking, like how do you could I did not know watching missiles come did. We would go like on the days where the missiles we're gonna come in every there's, only three,

some people on the island, everyone, I will go to the beach and you'd, see like streaks of life, and it was a cause of actual. Was you know why you far out? I was too far, I guess, I want to close yeah. Let's see, I have like five, five of them all line up perfectly next to each other like all coming in. That's it crazy. I dunno mind you. I wonder what your brain did with that. I dunno how it didn't register for me until I you know I was him. I remember doing that. I got on wikipedia and was just like what was going on. There and then why that's the nasty business man right, but you still went out there and saw the show definite ammunition. Calves, like amazing, to guess he must think about, like other figuring out, how to kill people they're, just like they're honing in the EU, which is vital. His ankle missiles were its, but you didn't find it. tricky for you moving our time, making it. Very tricky, but it also was like director boot camp. I could

I have had an bringing that would have better prepared me to be ill making this. Why have you figure that? Because my whole childhood was you move into a new situation? You have too quickly make friends with everybody who ve known each other longer than yeah. You ve known them right. You form tight relationships, you, figure out your thing. In that circumstances I mean it means like am I the sports guy here? Am I funniest one. Am I known? eating weird stuff like what's my thing? That's gonna mean I can have friends and like be willing to go any direct? Well, however, it works out. Then it just happens to you. You be, you have real, are well reference in sport. In eating where things in your waiting or whatever the thing needed to be yeah, yeah yeah, but

I mean this still happens is indeed you walk into a group and you sort of like red the room and you like a cool. What's lake How am I going to have a fun time tonight with this group? If my going to eat this guy's clearly already the one they all think is really funny, so I'm not going to like getting a pissing match funny to you, although little bit, may I feel it out. It depends if he's not funny at all, then you're like. Oh, what, if he's a dick, tend to like not engage with dicks. Ok, I'm not confrontational. In that way, I don't wanna like not even aside swipe. Like you know, I don't think somebody has to. really bad, I was at a bachelor party recently and there's a guy that was that was just out of control and in those situations I can't stay quiet then, and then it got like openly hostile right dude. You are freaking me, the fuck out of Missouri bothering what was he was really very, very drunk and aggressive like he was ruining everyone's good time

I'm not gonna. Like my bodies that may arise right, I'm not gonna. Let this night go downhill like this. I shall end here. I haven't. We take a walk now he but Ebay dude. He was so far across the line like it has to get back Most of the time, I'm just going to be like quietly angry drunks report. A little bit. We have a lot. We host a lot at my house, so I'm like getting versed in drunkenness like I'm, starting to like be like a bounced, If something like you know it's like now, I'm around parties, often enough that I'm like okay cool all the warning signs are up this person's going to is really fucked up so you become a director early on because you had to manage situations and get everybody just had to I mean I think I became a director because I'm like self centred and think I have good ideas. I mean, I think, that's the director thing, but I had

good moving around a lot growing up. I had to get good at walking into a situation like that, making myself comfortable in that situation here forming friendship but then also like, then I had to move and I had to like not not. I had four, friendships, united, carry every single friendship. Only that emotionally emotionally invest yeah that emotionally invested in a way. Well know here's what I would ideally. What I would say is that I am that emotional invest are not fake emotional invested, but also, I know it's going to end So it's a real investment, but it's also like it's a cat crush me every time. I try to heart hardening albania in a way fry and I think I think, they're being involved with a directive direction her with a film, but not so much like a long shoot,

that you do you like those yeah, but I'm very unity, ass for me and every movie I've ever done. You forget the rest of the world exists. You like these are my friends. This is what's funny to us. This is the restaurant we go to every night like here's my life and then the movie ends and if you're, not okay with going, and doing that again with a different group of people. You're fucked, I mean he'll, just be sad. The rest of you it'll be like you're, never going to be that good again at one matt was the gang and like now I have to just like recreate that scenario. So, in a way it was just like you know the baby steps towards like here how you totally invest and then here's how you also accepted the end of that year and have you there. because you seem all your blown out by the fact that you're gonna die. That's like the biggest human accomplishment we ve ever done as we face Where would we be amazing as though it were the only ones who they have that choice? And then, sir, we're just able to want? We act to wander around and look from things mean things it's the worst gay,

These self awareness did knowing that there The finish line like one then this as I have to do some something has to mean something I'm in a weird position with their right now about like meaning yeah. What are you thinking what's tell me more well, I met you, I just turned fifty one and I've spent a lot of my life sort of like not acknowledging your you know. Knowing you have problems or whatever they are or knowing your haba in a certain way. Emotionally yeah and then all of a sudden realizing like well. I, like, I just got this book where I'm reading this book and until I tell it, it's really giving me a map of what's really going on and what happened. It's a clinical psychology book and I'm like, oh so this makes total sense. So now, how do I get it that part of myself? that needs to come out and needs to figure out how to live in the world and find you know why since I do not know what I enjoy. What do I want to do today? Yeah yeah, I'll, choose peace, almost every time. I come too

to sit here and dread doing here and that's the problem, because life is short It's so cool that you're trying to be a better person that you're like mate pudding, for it, and I mean it's like really. I hope not you're right, I know, but what is it? What becomes draining because once you're onto yourself. It's not so easy not to when one is just second nature. After so, after a lifetime of people going like you got phoenicia together our europe ass I had ever eventually aids can be. I know, maybe I mean yeah yeah yeah right, but its anyone's journey D on immunity, and then you get in that zone where it sort of like if I'm gonna be able fixes. So what can I accept? and who can I find that can also deal with that shit, the out of that sea, friends and right romantic partners with right like or when I think about my wife. I it's amazing to me that she loves me and can like spend their time. we spend so much time with me. What would have what about you? Do you think, is difficult,

a lot of things man. I definitely. I definitely was always think I have the best idea of how to like to handle the situation it's a year, Does it occurred to me. I don't know what I would be raw right. I think I think I'm you know like. I was the kind of kid that, like a lot of stuff came pretty quickly No, but then also, I don't, I often then die, put in the work to get a lot better at that, oh, yes, the isolated was pretty quick. I like I figured it out and I would like pretty good at it very quick So then I was like the best at it for a while, and then the people who really put in to get good at it got way better than me, or else they stay good, like the weekends is like there's some part of the brain like. I give it some whether it's an art thing, or maybe it's a bowling or whatever, like those that need to fucking I do really well either to prove to yourself or to prove to others just innately like I'm going to do this, and then you kill it

that one time and then it never comes back and you don't want to put the working you sort of man, maybe up or focus at hardier yeah. So I went like work, how things really get it I was definitely at school I mean I was like. Could get good grades and you know I didn't. I, like my younger brother James, had to put the work in didn't come easy to him like if he wanted to get a's at a subject. He really had to work. I could just like get a's thing. I could like figure out how that thing worked enough to like be ok all right? You can figure able the contractual eyes yeah. I was like here's. A school works. Here's the dynamics like this is a test, goes there's a system to most things that different. I can't compartmentalize very well compartmentalize. I have to have to wait for secrecy yeah, but no sensitive information. Sure but wait interesting because like you are the way you are like. I saw you briefly. I want your screening

a happy christmas at the roxy, though yeah last night of that guy yeah totally worked a keygen yeah, my qeeg him. I didn't know him, but I walked in just to see the movie out of nowhere and we were seeing that showing after You broke their early, and you were on the scale of that was first, I encountered you yeah europe. fucking live to other people know I'm like this guy ice to be on track to that guy's nice that I come across I am happy to hear that you come across so well. Adjusted in like you've got your head on straight, and you know you come from this nice family, but your movies are are difficult. I think you have to have a very safe, protective, healthy home life to make difficult artwork. But the thing is: is that the fact that you're so consciously doing our work is in a way something like I dont, think anybody's doing independent movies, like you do them and in continuing to do them without really too much of a hint of it of its some sort of launching pad. I watched, I have seen all them because you'd made like twenty

generally arms in wide nine years. I met a lot, but but the point is at what you do is not easy to do. It's not easy to balance is not easy to make compelling, there's a lyricism and of poetry to it. That is specifically art movies. this, not just in yeah yeah yeah. You make art movie here the end well yeah for sure I mean I grew up. I fell in love with that and then have like always aspired with your theory. My theory, enough in the artist that I've known, is that if you there are the people who are making are to be loved by others who, like sort of our lacking. This is very broad, so, of course, like everybody's and fall easily into one of the other cargo. like there's a way if you, if you sort of her feeling a lack of love in your personal life or or a sort of a lack of a foundation of love.

I think it's easy to become an artist, because it's it's a very quick way to get like love from a bunch of strangers rain. If they get it yeah or whatever you condemned yourself to make them get it like. I think that you, you know, that's the path you're on you can figure out an area where you can find that love from from as a craig external. Yes, yes, If you don't need the work to provide love, and you can make challenging work because you're like I'm, I'm ok as a person like I have I am married. I have a child. My parents love me, like I'm doing all right. I have like a bedrock of stability and love. So now the artwork can push people. It can challenge people, because if they don't like it, I'm ok still, but if you need, them to like it, because that's where you're loves gonna come from. I think then you make like could make safe like

Oh all, right, if you use a lab malays, depends how complicated ourselves like living is like. So like the. If your model is true, You feel stable, but you still to put some element of passion, your explorations, our emotional, so you may not be seeking, though from those, but the challenge your presenting. I just have our time. Completely believing that it comes off from a most stability. It seems to me that you are, working out equations and possibilities emotionally on screen that must be percolating inside. You can't be that detached Definitely I am but but your knife a well had no here's what I would say like if, if my relationships and a good play and my wife and I earn a good place. I can make movie about what it would be like to cheat right near and then I'd have to worry that that movies, gonna fuck up my relationship that

Be a conversation, my wife and I can be having while making the move right. I can explore treacherous emotional territory in a very real way like in a way that hits close to home, like, for instance, with happy christmas. That's a movie that came out of conversations, my wife and I were having after we had a kid where she felt really like a stuck like trapped at home. With that kid and like she had bigger dreams, will definitely she's. We met in film school she's a filmmaker, also and like I got to like after the birth of my son, because I could make more money than she could at the time. just made sense for our family that you know like I kept working right and she stayed home practical and then you know sort of like reached the tipping point of that were like this isn't cool with me any more like a conscious keep going this way, and I'll I'll die inside in haiti yeah exactly and so there without movies about it shot in my house, my son and I are in it like that-

it's a movie. Your son was good yeah he's pretty he's pretty amazing. Yeah yeah he's a total sweetheart hey, but you know like that. That movie pushes a lot buttons, not only for my wife and I ve had a lot of other people who may be find themselves in that same position right well, I think that new, The other thing that movie did you. I guess we can work back because at the most recent movie is that the character that Anna kendrick played her for an even someone, my age. How old are I'm thirty? Three, that's ridiculous, ridiculous! It feels you ve made he movies it feels old and young. At the same time to me right now, like I, I keep this picture. There's this picture robert all men making national here that I it that I like to keep handy because he's it maybe he's fifty or maybe he's like into his fifties. He looked so playful and like if you look at his career, he's like still figuring a shit out, like still like, invent

stuff still like totally changing a game in the way movies are made in yeah yeah really useful for me to have around, because I so they even I made a lot of stuff like I don't. I mean the stuff that I've made so far, so I hope that the movies gets so much better and like I want. I'm definitely make sure that, like twenty years from now, I still feel like an amateur. You know like. I still have a spirit where I'm like coalesced, reinvented every time out later, some weird risks he's amazing man. He really quintet not yet he is why are you better aid was, are movies and bad ones, to which I really like about and we want to ensure that ocean sticks, I think, is really bad. Elaine I am, I gotcha geographic, that's an attempt at making a teen common monitoring. One penny The player to deny that was tight.

me like that way. It's interesting when someone breaks from his own and says that can make regular movie here, here's a regular movie like a nineties holloway bite, but it was so dark there is over. I guess that's nice kick in the balls to the industry. Definitely I saw, but boy cable that bring something interesting about usa, because you have the facility that he did not have, which is ability to shoot on cameras in a relatively expensive way and the compulsion, continue learning and pushing your own creek of envelope that devalued thirty. Three, it's it's like do you feel like it, some when you're can be like long and get this arch shit Adam I system and maybe of love on a vision, it's a little more palatable to the general population. I think that that's happening anyway. I mean I it's made like just getting older thing or maybe it's a being a dad and a husband now, but the last what movies I've made an essentially the same way that I've always been working, and yet they saw feel more accessible to people traffickers.

exams, are getting and drinking buddies. The one before the three bodies feels different to me: how's. It feel to you were moments in it that that that felt the kind of a little more, I dunno if they're mainstreaming, because, like I you know, RON livingston brings a certain amount of recognition for sure and and yoda the back apa, the brewery was ok from the relations are ok by like for me. What really seem to be most like you was the detention of of the friend slash of dynamic that other guys, the mare, of the other young people, but she the primary character, Was this a difficult character? You know I didn't. I didn't don't know necessarily at the end of it all that she was ever gonna really be able to access your emotions, yeah she's, in a bad spot. I think it's obligated carried seemed a little. I guess so. I think I think it was because coming

and your work and I know, do class and I've why other stuff, but oh movement. They are involved in your happened after I was in it. Even I wasn't on the inside of things you know like I missed anvil korea, yeah sure it's not my generation. Yet I gotta go back so starting with happy chris. in an immediately knowing in hearing you talk about it. For ten minutes, where I got the rise of re, a crazy context as your movie Where was do beforehand, because I've never seen that before ever the squirrel, just climbed down the screen, we just a squirrel stomach. It must happen a lot. I bet it happens. Five times a day, you just now been, never letting it never seen it pretty ingenious way to get around it is called down. The screen. Squirrels are amazing than their very versatile. You have. I barely really pay that much

tension to them and their around. I wouldn't even identify them somewhat. City of wildlife, coyote, skunks, possums, raccoons squirrels. when even mega list it is rare that was a big score pig, but but the fact that you shot on sixteen like there was something about. for me as an older guy and like you, came up and film school, where fucking disunity you don't want to do. I know. Well, I went to a really old school film school, so, while I didn't have to most, people did and you got the sense from the professors that they very much per. it and would want showed. But there are certain skills I mean outside of of understanding. You know how to really control aperture and how to act. really get the most out of your actors and had him to think economically yeah but like in of the young editing. Sixteen is useless, yak its you know? Imagine what it absolutely is in its, but it's also how I learned so I have that how you weren't,

things, not a flap at editor, cutting sixty millimeter here, because I thought just the tone of it. You the amount like you, it's not that you have to forgive anything but you you realize like one. If, even when I watch the m, even drinking bodies which is not no. It shot on, of course, right yeah in and even the one with that I just watch with jane, jane atoms, all the light in the sky. It's great movie thanks man, you, I am very proud of it like what you can do with a camera just what the ocean, which you, what you had to do. You could not have done what sixty re ever so there's your content. Yeah everything saturated a certain way yeah, but it does have that feeling of, like you know like when I was younger, and so I can watch a move yeah. You know like you, you can't manufacture. That has that, for me too, it's a really it's that second, it hits the screen chemically. Your body feels that right, like I'm looking at something shot on film, is a film yeah. I know so so making that

where they come from, it came from a fear that it was gonna go away. I mean I having gone to film, scorn, done work on film and then sort of spent ten years making movies on video, I always told myself well I'll get back to film. You know like that's once it's an option again it'll sort of be on the table and it just kept becoming less than the. Have an option I mean, even if you have a little bit of money, nobody wants you to shoot on film and you know, studio movies are not shooting on film any more. Even That line item would be a tiny one in regional budget there still like. Why would we even spending dress. Seventy thousand dollars that we don't have to spend and so I got very afraid, I might go the rest of my career, never make a film a real film, and so I will have to die if you hadn't done a feature on sixteen. That was your person feature on film. Was it for you great? Really nice experience, I guess the economy of it must

really raised the stakes for everybody. I noticed it in a very positive way. Could you weren't you with actors? Is that have probably never shot? I'm felt most of them hadn't. I dont think Melanie once He was a genius yeah anna kendrick, an injustice. There's this I idea that, like in the world they grew up any sort of like we do. May taxes the day will allow yeah. Does it cost nothing yeah yeah, maybe like very early in their careers. They had done in these new developments I bet it had been like a decade at least for all of us, since an you felt that the did. You have to have a conversation about that it was a part of how I talked about the movie. I mean I I let them know that that was going to be a priority, that it was important to me to do this one on film and that we, you know that was going to be where a lot of the money was going to go and that we were just going to make that choice. But but you know, if you work, completely improvisational yeah. So it's it's a gamble. Well, we budget

it afford a one shooting ratio which meant we for takes was the most we could do, and he stuck by that we came in under actually huh yeah cause you just let it roll we we did that and also my own editor. So when I, when I like something- and I know I'm gonna use it- I dont need coverage, then after that. You know we don't need to beat around the bush and say like well just as a safety net. Let's go ahead and shoot this, and this and this because it's my movie that take was great. I'm going to use. Take. I'm not gonna. Give myself a note later that I want to cut to an end, sir. So, let's not shoot the injured shot was interesting, that you know that that's a confidence of of a creative power comes from. Having made seventeen movies already. You know I mean I you get a feel for me are also acting in it. You know, I know I guess might seek as a friend of mine, and he has the same sort of you have to have that kind of weird creative fortitude to yield. To direct your

your movies and caught him and then to be in there? You, you can't can't have that thing. You're talking, right, a need for love diana loud everyone else, the someone's gotta dried right so bright. But it's interesting to me with with happy christmas at it. Wasn't you knew the store? right so in your mind, when he set out, there was a pretty specific story. This this girl comes in she's. Your sister she's got her own problems and that character was pretty amazing. What I was about to say before was that, no matter what you are, but I you know I'm only fifty one, so I grew up posts, sixties or whatever. There's there there's always a strange entitled kind of like troubled. substance wise, but you not sure what you were. There's like it's it's a I recognized her yeah. Why has been? for one thing, it would have been around the forties in the same way, but there's there that character and

she's really the pivotal thing that the changes and you hate her in a bit yeah. Not here, what sort of like fuck for sure I hope, but why? How did you constructed? story. I me, I understand that you had your was why I may add a really personal stuff. Also, my younger brother, James, who was not nearly as bad in real life, is an is characterised in the movie, but my younger brother James had come and live with us after we bought the house and you well you reach a certain age where you just as hard to have people in your space for a long period. Even if they're your even if they're your family, and even if their gray and even if their helping out you sort you get used to a level of privacy and a level of autonomy, and then suddenly you know he was living in the basement. That basement is where my wife and I hang out it's. Where are the only tv in the house is down in that basement? It's flora where we go if we just what like catch up on a movie or radio, and he was down there, so even just by being there. Was in the wave and if he was the politest best houseguest ever

You know, and you feel I get it. You have to do a cause, he's family. I wanted to do and also like you know, he had gone to school in Lexington Kentucky he was ready to move in or out of the college town and moved to the city. I thought that that was a good idea, so I was happy to be able to be helpful nice to be an older brother and be in a position to help me. I'm ready, ass right, and so you know all it was great. I mean it was really nice to have him with us and and he has a weird relationship to the movie because No, he makes it look like he was a fuckin mass who, like you know, really that's fucked our house up, but he wasn't he In addition, we ve talked about it a couple times, but you know he wasn't. The best houseguest ever either be happy brother. We well he's his my younger brother tune. I try and be generous to younger, but it's interesting, though, because I've had to deal with that with my father and son because of the tv show like where you're like tat, we ve through me under the bus- and I know not, that would mean you why you note of it. We can explain that is a body signal. No one's gonna make an assumption.

it's very tricky thing: if you're gonna use your real life in your art before I get away, This is the one thing I've noticed in watching the films is how deeply the expectation narrative expectations. Films are ploughed into us, almost like as old as well as from one were children fisher. so it's very interesting. The watch, your movies, even when I was watching happy christmas, you sort of wait like is going to get bad. She had something's going to go down. Man, like is she going to get in a car accident, but the big turn was you like what she burnt a pizza yeah, and you know it was like that was a moment and even in in the stars, and what is it? The sky was a light in the scale, the lightness guy. The do you know the biggest moment, and that in that light, the most like jarring moment was here. I mean that conversations she has with with Larry fastened in the movie where he does the jack nicholson, impersonation. That was clear he feels like the crock. That's like my big claims.

The moment is to people on a talking for twice that of the most powerful moment in fucking movie was when that call. wreck came off the land actions, the intent was put it we. That is why I couldn't believe it like after she we as like that and then have been just like I'll. That's that's! That's! The end of the second area has really funny yeah. That's me sense of humor. I mean that contract coming off the wall. To me as the funniest thing I could do and then that's so totally my sense of humour labour, So ass, a very telling, and it's like you, because you're working improvisational in your hanging this stuff on a loose story, that's based on emotion, yeah. That did to find those they hang your narrative on literally that sort of the trick of of making movies away. You do yeah, It's got you either people going to fyodor they're, not yeah, I mean I would say even that there is just like

you're already in a very small pool of people that are even capable of feeling it, and then some of them are going to feel it and some of them are dressing because like for me, it's like you brings me back to a different time. Were you know where I was studying film in college and you know you had to be piper attentive, impatient and and try to, here are some one who told you that this is the good stuff and then you just gotta sit there you're watching saint John going like me, a lot of like red desert tony doing. I care what you why? What am I missing here and it's like you, can't be so hard on yourself yeah, it's you know, I'm like the kind of person that automatically bristles when somebody tells me something's jeanne. You know, like now. Yet this is a masterpiece, that's a terror, and then I like full marin's, unlike irae, prove it but I'm so s little ryan, yeah, but so, like you guys, there's something I mean like some, your stuff is kind of godard. In definitely I mean you like that some stuff like yours,

Playfulness with editing is like for sure always been a big influence, like I kind of got the feeling watching silver bullet when she point with the gun in the mirror. That was almost in homage yeah. That stuff it's funny how that stuff filters through like at the end, I sort of landed upon the way that I work specifically to avoid references I feel like I wouldn't you know like I was in high school imperfection came out. I feel a bow that changed everything everything there was then a period of like three or four years. every movie that came out with just a knock off of perfection. It felt like right everyone's just trying to do that thing did a knock of knocking off movies yeah exactly, Our government has not ok yeah yeah and and so you know it was like a really. The is the time period where I was falling in love with movies, and so I I had to go outside of that stuff because it, got so similar where'd you go, I mean I I worked in a video store and so and we had the ability of order movies for thee.

store. So you know we were. I was just like try and watch a lot of documentaries, a lot of foreign films. Ah, yes added a lotta like exploitation trash. I definitely was into trauma. You know I was just like sort of trying to dip my, hose in all the waters to see what was registering and also what was achieved. Trauma movies. Definitely, but you did it. Did you make horror movies early on now but I probably thought I would I mean I I was drawn to them. I was drawn to the ability to do them on a low budget. They felt achievable when you can afford. are you gonna, do with it silver bullet Finally, there are, alas, uniquely that's like yeah Horror movie, as as, like my interests, would allow me to get probably won't. You gets like that. But what do I care about is now yet cast? it varies only via osmosis I've never really seeing cassavetes movies, but I'm was influenced by the people who were influence by cassavetes. So I'm who would I be

I anybody who is like an eighties or nineties american innovative, filmmaker everyone right, I mean he's the godfather right, like he sort of change the game and then at like in one way or another. Everybody who has the gall to pick up a cameron go with their friends and say we're gonna make a movie is influenced by cassavetes right so like while he's not for me a directive, wounds and in a way now it's like. Those movies have become a whole because I know that all like them, when I finally see them side I have sort of been waiting for. The perfect circumstance like I am kind of waiting for a cassavetes retrospective, where I can just go and watch them all in a week You get the criterion bottle. I want now to him in a movie theatre for the first time. Ok, I'm waiting for that make maybe buildeth ears. You want you want, and I could talk to maybe like somebody in to see if we are in chicago, go curate yeah, that's a good idea. Actually wants you curate,

something like movies. I haven't seen that I want to see yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah shit, I've been meaning to watch yeah It's a good idea. I might do that. You should do it do that you get to watch it for the first time you have print of it and yeah yeah that'd be fucking awesome like it. I think I've always the celebration film tom has been diverted me yeah. It's amazing that That's it. What is here I saw that firms go. Thou was a big one, because that I mean great about movies like the celebration. Is you no longer have permission not to go, make a movie because you look, You, like it, didn't cost much money, it's all? It is really compelling performances in a really compelling sorry like now you now you have no excuses you have to. If you think you have the stuff now go prove it by. movie did every for sure. All those dog sums were really important to me because it like

what I love about lars von trier and those early dogma. Guys was they they for Adam, important time. In my life they took all of the emphasis off of production, design and sickness, which is the one thing you can't do right in film school rant. Do that right, you have to have a lot of money and be working with really good people, and also that changes all the time like our idea of what's slick and expensive looking shifts every couple of years. So, even if you got good at one thing, you'd be out of touch by the time you like could put the resources together to fake you know and like so by taking the emphasis, a hundred percent off of that and actually by calling that stuff bullshit, saying the only thing that matters is actors and a hand camera and a story I was

yes, now I can wow. I now there's a context for the work you have. Precedent has been there like a guy who did the other thing really well just said that the other thing is bullshit. Yes, yes, yes, yes, and I was so liberated dear. Let's get out of the sky. grab my friends grab a video game and just make a movie, but it, but it also seems, like you know, You'll make a movie sort of at the drop of a hat. If I meet a cool actor or there's a cool idea that, like enters the ether and I feel like I can like snatch it and go, do it I'll go do it, but what about the the the the thing Are you obviously shod? there, the sky, movie and silver bullet simultaneously or you have left over footed Eric several of them. Simultaneous. There is a period of time or I was working on. I think for me, he's at once. They have a lot of the same actors in a man. There is just like a ton of overlap and their certain people it can do what you want them to do in certain people are probably couldn't when I'm like people who can do it, I hold onto them very tightly like and Melanie and Jane, reassure assure that do

always in the sky movie, will area of NGO Larry fastened in whose also director, whose work I really like you, and I the other guy get to the one she so up with. I like him, taiwanese villains, americans, osborne, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure those if you look at my movie candles ones in almost everything I've ever met like ease like I can't I get idea? That, unlike welcome, would be perfectly after that, but these are familiar to hear these repeat, these are types of people that you kind of knowing your life There are millions of me there. They are creative people like theirs of theirs in the world of work. People work when their not being creative in and also how they carry themselves yet whether they ve turn their back on their creativity or not. If there's a certain community to that definite. you know what I mean if they're, not if they're not actually actual rising crime activity there you're there a brewer, yeah yeah. Definitely it's a it's all very familiar to me, but in silver bullet

like there's some real kind of like in You mean the reference it, but you know the fact that yours weighing with a gun and he's behind her oda that that that is a right. I mean that's. That's like taking the whole history movies into account. that's a scene from a movie purposefully, yeah, yeah it wasn't you not lying dear? Yes, we're not just just filtered, and we you like man, I don't even ever think of anything like I haven't even watching movies. I just as one has to be pyramid. Did you where's, your documentary about the of the shining yeah. Well, I had a really good time with me too. It's really fun, but the only thing that was interesting to me was the one guy who said that you know that he was such a a deep intellectual that he might not have had any clue him that he was a vessel for these layers of of conspiracy theory of significant symbolic significance of semi artic. Here you know because you

but you get hung up on that. What was it a flower or that the box of yeah how I met yeah we're. they can. That is to write a certain way or whatever it's like. You have a really hard time, believing like kubrick, so I just said but but somebody did sure, but your movies are not loaded up the same way. Not at all. I mean I'm hoping that. Might you know it's really? It's a lot of it's accidental. I'm trying to create an environment, onset, we're accidents can happen because I, like my feeling, is that you only innovate by action, that nobody smart enough to have a new idea that just like takes things into a new round doesn't feel so constructed yeah. Somehow there's like a limitation that forces you to solve the problem in a new way and

did that for me, was always kind of the guiding light. Was let's put ourselves in a situation where we don't know. What's going to happen where I don't, I have to follow the action. The way a documentary, camera person would have to follow a real life event like I'm not setting mark Where you start hearing you have to walk over there, I'm just saying: do it and then I'll try and capture it and by not capturing it, then I'll have to figure out how to edit the scene in a cohesive way, and then I might accidently do something interesting or several interesting things That's that changes based on the movie, like obviously with drinking buddies. There was a level of improvisation and awe and sort of a space where accidents could happen within the current acts of stronger narrative and better lighting reiser around like that, and once you introduce better lighting you you sometimes have to set marks. You know things change things start.

change. Your business shove is now you're making a movie, and so in a way I have more recently embraced movies. The way movies are made because I did so many things outside of the bounds of how movies are made, and I also got to a point where I wasn't creating situations where accidents were happening anymore. I was like too familiar with all those scenarios, weren't they revelling dialogue, philip yeah, so so wasn't in dialogue. But I was like. I don't know it wasn't feeling chaotic the way it maybe did on the early movies, and I was like you know what I've become a director: I've either you ok. Yeah. Now I'm like trying to do that for a period of time just like see if I can get good at that thing too, but that both sounds to me what you're doing with once you are.

Freed by dogma films. Yet in terms of process was you were like ice You know I'm going to treat this organically yet because I have the freedom to do that I have the equipment and it doesn't cost me a lot to treat this as as an organic process were surprises can happen I can learn about myself through structuring these loose narratives, to see how people engage emotional, and I can. put myself in it and and and take the parts of myself maybe you're not that high quality people stuff, yeah and resolve because like in so boy? I mean this stuff, you are dealing with in that character that you played was too. There is some dares to real summoning pettiness,

jealousy, but just hilarious, but yeah. That stuff is like straight up artist kind of stuff. Maybe it's not the kind of artist you are, but it's what it is for sure. I'm playing myself- and I know, but the funny thing is- is that in every scene your way into that overly large book. The euro, reading this book, I got five hundred pages you and your well underway, and never once that. I think that you would read the other forums. ages, necessarily at, but using their going like you're having this discussion about form because you're, so secure drawing down there. Like, you know more than you do yet, but I thought it was all areas that book was always like maria that the answer as I've been that guides in here. This is the body here. What book was that that was the complete plays of check off? Why is it important to you at the time? While we were basing silver bullets off of the siegel, so we we had like stolen some character types

actually, I wouldn't have known that because I'm not that much of an intellectual- nor am I am in Jane. Addams turned me onto the seagull when we started the process of doing silver bullet. She was like you should read the seagull, it might be useful and it was super useful but like this If you were doing what cowering with video and emil like some of that stuff was shot on sixteen the stuff was. Was it uber eight super, even so bright light to make decisions about The montage is like the ones you did in that I mean that was like fucking know like and stand bracket yeah. It was a straight up bracket while definitely the film school I went to bracket was really important person because, like that, you know to taken breakage that time when it. When I went to a brackish rest, oh my god, you're gonna get us you, you acted like. I had to sit there and go. I I'm ok. I like mark roscoe. I understand how to make this transition two to understand that, like film can do this year, it may not be everyone's idea of a night out here, but You can do it here, but I

like some of that stuff in there to have the confidence to to string those kind of images together and in that kind of movement. Those kind of colors specifically for a poetic effect is, is, policy and not in not many people doing it. It's not very valued. Right now, culturally, I mean that's. While our viewpoint I don't know if ever valued, except in the world, that we are not in maybe you're right. I might be only a little nostalgic and unlike what you need, your fill the school nostalgia, because you, those guys we're valued and film school year, because those guys were fighting exactly what you know you were fighting initially, which is that you know do think that that everyone's hacking on, tarantino hacking on other things and then the idea of jeanne value, I mean people like a dog, in brackets to an extreme were saying like fuck, all that, let's bring it back to high art dear

You know what I mean even like they were turning their backs on everybody on wells, eating volume, yet all garbage. I just put pink up for two minutes here: yeah, it's tough to sift through which of that stuff is legitimate in which that stuff is laziness. Its high I mean in film school. That was a big challenge for me with somebody like you could you could be the character and that movie and before she had very easy to just look at that stuff and say this is lazy bullshit. Anyone could do this in a divided like. Why do we think this guy, so great right, but you as an artist end like you, can do then rationalizing like you know like this, is your vision, but the difference between you, the reason that I'm talking to you at all, is that there is a tremendous difference between you know like an established abstract artist, a guy who just says I? Can anyone can do that? I agree with you. Of course I mean if that wasn't,

we'd all be in trouble. We are surrounded by you and undecipherable guard yeah, but you know fraud slip through the system, all the time for a little while further and and sometimes are so established that forever they do but but if there might, but that is what I said, then you getting very dangerous to just accept that somebody's great, it's very dangerous, because you, you always should investigate as an artist oil. It aside that you like bracket, you shouldn't just assume you like right, but as an artist, you that's the difference. You, like a fraud, can exist in a world that fraud is making money for somebody else who gives a fuck if he's affrighted sight of researchers in two different contacts yeah, but you if you're gonna talks missive, in the context of art than there is different per hour matters in theirs and then the in struggle between artists in justifying that in the critics at need to judge a fighter establishing year out in the fraud world the guy made a million dollars for us last year, cases of fraud? You now we re going to make to next year, but there be

a system I mean, I don't know if you have this feeling when you watch movies, but there at this point in time there is a kind of a movie that wins academy awards right layer. It's not a that's politics. Alpha component well, I totally agree, but when I was a kid, that kind of movie also was the kind of movie that felt like the best may be the right now I get the more the more I make my own stuff in the more I see of other people's stuff, the less those worlds seem to overlap right. There's leah, the marketing machine that decides that, like you know, David or Russell mourns course easy Paul, Thomas Anderson, David Fincher, these guys like ok, these I make important towards you movies everything they may hauling and marketed and pushed through that system aimed at those really states that winning those oscars and then like. Sometimes they do, and sometimes it

but it's all you know it's all sort of like belongs that world. Well, you know, fortunately, I'd of that list. You know which is one list yeah now, tremendously swampy, I totally agree there all amazing marred hazards, there's a shock component due to some of that, so those come out and they sort of her pushed through the system as as the important already awards movies right, but, like I saw that movie the conjuring that James one movie, I in vat movies, a masterpiece, thou movies, never going to be non for an oscar, their closed off to it before it exactly and right. It was a good. I think it's amazing man, I'd really to me the best crafted and best for certain people, the best acted movie of the year like lily taylor, performance in the conjuring is certainly better than any one who won an oscar last year right by. Because it's a horror movie directed by james one vat.

Avenue was never open to it from option. There were nine, a gown bothers me right right there we ve, let that, like it, so much just a part of them how the industry market stuff, that's certain movies are eligible for words and other movies never will be, and why not? Looking at the level of quality, they're just looking at like. Is it that kind of movie or does it honor system, yet that we put in place by Ben? I think that's why it's dangerous and that's why it's like you always have to investigate and decide for yourself if you even think a certain filmmakers, any good yeah, let alone a master right, but a lot of time seems like gum. Sadly, like you said they may not be frauds,

but my letter name might not be willing where you can make a movie. Their consistently makes a lot of money, that's very hard to do there. Now. I dont consider those people frauds right. Actually, I think these days my suspicion is that it's easy it's easier to fraudulently sneak into the important serious art world world of things then is the commercial world of things, because the commercial world of things it either works very dug. It makes money or tat theres a million shares of gray in the already by the writer, exactly in the india in independence into a yak on a study, and there can be some real, some garbage yes m. herbage. That, like still has a place in still some land, you go. You woke up that Brazil s right, but you have like, like I've, decided somehow or another that you know, you're the only guy, no, that's like making these art movies in a way that is poetic, n and requires

a sort of openness to allowing the thing to did not give you what you want yeah and in an reckon with it. I'm king a lot of the audience, I'm asking them to participate in that with me, which is it's a big ask and organise I've gotten older. It's an even bigger I'm realising what a big ask it is because I I dont get to the movies. As often as I used to you know, it's it's a bigger deal for me to go to make the time to go to a movie, theater and see a movie, and so I think when I was younger, I took it for granted and I'm I made some lazy choices, because I I didn't feel the responsibility that I feel now the audience. What okay? So now is yours shifting as you you know you went to film school and then you decided to to actually take advantage to you. your compulsion and desire to figure out something

about the medium and about yourself and you ve had the all this experience that you ve done on your own terms, completely work. asteroids are, you are at emi. How do you not end up becoming a college professor and that's been an easy choice not to make because it I wouldn't be able to make enough stuff. If I was at college, Professor being I know what I'm saying now I began to have an integrity that you're. You know that their. party, you, you know, I know your cohorts, I know do plaza. I know you, I know evelyn shelton yeah, I know of for that that come out of a real sort of like scrapper indy yeah ideal. But but you have a commitment to a vision. It seemed that some of them were sort of like wow, I'm going to find my place in this machine here, yeah like you're in Chicago yeah, you don't seem you just bought a house in chicago,

yeah, not like I'm coming to l a tomorrow yeah. So what's the plan Joe? The plan is to have as much ownership as possible in my own work so that when that worked as well, I benefit from it, and the plan is to ah just always work with really talented good people, and I think that the the planned doesn't have to be a lot more complicated than that, because it's always gonna make me wake up in the morning excited to go. Do it if I'm around people who were stimulating, who are challenging me, but who are a good people like? I can't I just can't deal with a ton of bullshit and, like I m, really bad creatively when I'm around people who are in secure or who

like mean, are you know, like all the sort of thing so, unlike assorted sniffing around and just like, I have my antenna up and I'm just looking for people like, I found Anna kendrick right. She some Hu, I hope to make seventy movies with like we get it together and like the thing that we can do can do in the most economical, efficient way possible, because there's no wasted time, there's no bullshit! There's no, like that. I have to lake send the offer in a certain way and take her out to dinner and then like sent. You know, send roses on the first day.

The shooting and whatever she's like? Let's go make a good movie, and that's all we have to worry about right now, I'm not going to like make a thing of it near and and Jake Johnson is like that olivia wilde's, like that RON livingston, like that, like those people that I worked with on drinking buddies, you I promise you, you will see them a lot yeah throughout the rest of my career and it and within the context of that, I, if the doors to doing like bigger movies like a studio movie or something for instance, opens my guesses. It will open. in the context of doing a studio movie with anna or doing a studio movie with olivia or doing a studio movie with jake, and then we'll go. Do our thing with different resources, with a bigger crew with whatever, but but in my heart, I'll still be going to work with anna and here's. My question yeah is that you know, then, all of a sudden the the the

collaboration becomes much broader and much bigger. I said or done yet right. I, and I am not I assume by the then you're gonna- have to deal with that that the horrible menace of production, basher shirt and set out yet yeah and I'm your construction totally, but I mean this could be. We should like you, know, follow up and like to see if I've done a studio movie and if I like, em back in chicago, like licking my wounds or something, but I love a lot of big budget movies. Truly love like the conjuring right more horror, we then I'm talking about, I haven't made a movie. That's a good! Is that one that I love? You know that's likes I, like my movies. I love I'm so proud of them and they're doing a thing that the conjuring is not doing, but the conjuring is doing a thing that is really cool and fun, and it's very very exciting. For me to maybe also do

and near I and the other thing that's exciting to me, as I dont know that I'm good at that thing, but it would be fun to get good at that thing just because it's another like skill set to likes, in your tool box? The thing you have going for you is a is a confidence in it at the very least, editing and at the very least, getting amazing performances out of people. I also have the capacity to collaborate yeah for sure I mean the way that I look at the work that I done with actors is like not getting phasing performances out of people its allowing people to give amazing performances like they ve got the stuff right end like as law, like I'm good at getting out of the way yeah and letting the stuff just shine through a lot of times, you're acting yeah! That's right! You're! Good at that! Well, Thanks man! I like doing it this fund. For me, I hope you can keep disposition I to I want to talk to you two years, just as if like if

thing. Is there if I could happen? What do you have all rapid? What do I think I felt like I could die a little bit inside or what do you mean? I mean I think, that's a that that sort of a that's a trope. I think what happens is you have to negotiate? yeah and and you have to negotiate vision, sometimes yeah, even if even if it's not because of our reasons. You know it might be the right thing to do I think, having never had an experience with that yeah, I don't know you die inside by it. I think it's it's. It's a painful process yeah What? What? What can you be more specific like it sounds like what you're saying is it's a painful process to acknowledge that somebody else might be bright or more right there, who are you and also that you might have to you? Not do it exactly the way that you want to do yes tone. And that you know there are actually people that might know better totally

It sounds very excite. This kind of pain sounds very exciting to me that actually let it get. If I can do that with smart people who actually are right, it sounds most painful if they're wrong and you and they like you, get you have to compromise, and then it doesnt work right. That sounds very painful to me where it's like fuck, I trusted you and you fucked me and now the movies bad cause. I was or, as you have the power to do more than when that happens. You that's the other part of it. Is that when there's larger stakes, nea and there's more power, were involved. Then you know each year be the guy gets thrown under the buyer, so so yeah It's true, but I think what you ve done for yourself. Ultimately, and your Your passion is is to make. It the way you want to make them and to experience the organic connection of the process and and the event itself outside of the movie, you know, has as much significance yeah to you yeah. So like the weird thing about that is, as you know, if you get beat up a little bit, you can just go back make your movies, that's how I feel about it:

yeah- that's why I'm even entertaining well yeah we'd make like I know whatever is going on for me now that at the end of the day I can come and do this yeah right, it's great raja, to talk to you, tell me about him in but very nice to have that yeah just don't want to get heartbroken. That's, I think, tat you and there's no way to avoid it, but he I think that you have a good head on your shoulders and have things in perspective which you seem to have you know you you know. Yes, you can relegate the risk. You know it's not like any one, ask you to direct a superhero. That's right! That's right! Not yet yeah yet, nor do I want to say so, like every right now is pretty cool like this stuff that I'm reading, that's written by other people that could be bigger movies is in superhero stuff. It's mostly like the smartest it's cool stuff, I mean george clooney- has consistently made really good smart movies. I mean he doesn't seem to fuck around and just like, do dumb shit, almost all good yeah and he seems like a pretty good guy and talk to an about him,

a great guy, you ass, a genuine get experience. We had and evidently net so did the they mcbride, you know these gaia. So if you come out here to l a and you don't, why would you come now I what what's happening while I come to l a because I have a business out here now. You know like work. I come out here to work I actually earlier in chicago to like live here in the movie business, I'm in the movie business. I actually, unlike I, make a living from my movies, and so I come out here to work how do you make a living from your movies? Well, it's come in various chow nels. My earlier movies are starting to bring me some money now because they are getting distribution and other countries. You know some of them are seven and eight years old, but if the sunday and channel the you know like

I had success with drinking buddies. Then they're like oh this guy, has other movies. We've never aired on the sundance channel. That's license these for a small amount of money, so that stuff is like from the old stuff's kind of starting to trickle in and then I m developing a movie for fox searchlight saga paid money to write that which is part of it. living rio, and then I make money when I sell my movies, Is a movie on your terms for fox searchlight? Definitely am I pitch them an idea they liked it. Ok, and you do hang out with the other young guns like the duplex boys, and I see him sometimes I I you know I I am we're talking over hollywood. They definitely are. I mean it's amazing. It's it's. A they without knowing it have been incredibly helpful to me how so because my stuff doesn't seem as crazy in a world where the duplex

Others are really successful, and so they pave the way in the industry. during the years right was so resistant to the industry. They were out here making these kinds of movies in the studio system, and now the studio system has context for these. Movies and right. Oh you know when a movie like drinking buddies, got seen by more people than we expected. It was a lot easier for me to come out here and say this is the next thing I want to make and have agents want thereafter to do it to have distributors one by it and release it, and you know, to a certain extent, Lena dunams down. There, too, I mean, let's try using a happy christmas, reacted in a happy christmas and like she and the dew ploss brothers, I would say you know, have sort of been the biggest advocates first stuff outside the system

you know, even though, like their known now for making stuff within the system they ve give in context for the weirder stuff and so like in a world where girls is on tv and where Jeff hullo at home opens in regular movie theatres. My stuff seems a little less weird and that's that's oddly, a big difference in the law. it's interesting because, like it's almost have returned to yet like for years. New. Even when you do you talk about like David, a rustle were, or were you know or where square says he came from that this sort of highbrow kind of volume, the ito intellectual discussion around anything, yet Your film wiser art wise, became very insulated and kind of old garnish yeah, and I think that with people like you and when people that like Lena who I've talked to and do plus when he feels like talking

being about that, you know about. You know we're what his places in, why the films he made were important that it sort of coming back like there there's a little more movement towards united and actual penny intellectual discussion about art yarn about what films capable and in also, I think that the This is broken open enough that really everybody can find their niche in an end in a way, especially if you ve got talent need, got friends and your part of momentum. You know that near that justifies you yeah, yeah and also we even in my life, I've seen it go through waves, and- and you know we happened to be in a wave right now, where the studio system is. Ah, let's see as risk averse as I've ever seen it in my life right, like they're, only making movies that make complete sense and are almost guaranteed to succeed international

yeah for sure it's a global industry, which means it's. The bar is low. The bar is low, but the bar as complicated it's like a low bar, has a lot of twists and turns in it, and they know how to navigate that genially. But like I've, since their meeting have been park. Erratic you're, making amusement going on the bigger scale. They certainly are definitely and as somebody who likes to go to amusement parks. I also like to go to their amusement park. Writer as often as I like to go to india films right now. It's like it's actually really fun for me to put on the three glasses and like drink a large sugary drink

I like fucking, kick back for two hours. I dig it yeah yeah, and so you know there's that thing happening, and I think that was what I've noticed happening is that that pool of actors that can do those kinds of movies is pretty small yeah and unless you get absorbed up into it. You know you're kind of left these days, if you're, a really talented actor with then like sort of slim pickens on like the other kind of stuff that they're making and what that has done for me is meant that a lot of really really talented people have been willing to come out and do the more with great it's great to its makes me very excited. It makes me feel like we're almost about to be in a really cool period of movies, near where suddenly it's like a holy shit, there was fifteen great movies that came out this year. Yes, with great performance is like

sick, amazing performance and its because those people didn't get cast in the comic book movies they're here and they have enough money that they don't need to go to a job they wanted where they went and did something cool they want to do they want to act. Are you ever going Do you like a large ensemble peace like an open movie my new one is like that yeah this movie digging for fire than I am finishing right now. It's there are new character, showing up all the way through the last couple minutes of the movie, like just it's a sprawling sort of allay movie, with a lot of the shot a here out of roles I did shoe to here and we shot on thirty. Five millimeter real out on film again yeah, who funded that I did partially and then this group of Chicago esters that I work with and then Jake Johnson, the lead actor Y yeah well well, shit man! I wish you all the luck in the world. Thank you I'll. Take. and- and I you know, I gotta catch up more your movies, but think we did our right with the now

I'm surprised you ve seen as many as you ve seen, really yeah. No, I love them. Thanks man I'm telling people about it. That's really cool! That's nice! I like em too, but you know it's like getting older. I'm just like more every day, more more clear. Why other people down I'm like I get why it's not or it's not what you are, looking for you I use when I was young so frustrated, I don't you like it man, it's like I'm trying sings. How can you not engage now, I'm alone? Unlike some, is you're in the mood for it some days, you just want some easy like I get it that's right, yeah and I had to feel that way about my stand up and stuff. It's like. I can't I never set out to make everybody happy. That's right way, you can't do it totally, but if enough people are indicated, sort of like within only keep doing it wouldn't work, as you do that you're up again set did meaning thing and the fewer dying thing here that there are some party you that's always get. It guy. Why have to make the thing that impacts the world here? You know who's gonna. Do that, I'm not beyond, say awful, our pressure similar.

The pressure, but it's awful lot a compromise in a way right What I mean it's like, as once you do that you, you sorta like boy boy I'll be, does it again and then you're I gotta do it again and then like? If you don't do it again, you, like you, failed the world like that, come see. You in sweden be bride in sweden, but they got you really matter three guy right, and I love that guy and I love his movies, but that was just wondering hoping that I'm coming to you, you forgot from a hotel room in rochester new york that I'm fine, but I've got a crate of mandarin oranges at a meeting mp. Got a deputy, afar decamp Roy deputy, a pilot pick up. The tab Get on the mailing list leave a comment. If you want to merge coming narration tour dates: rapid devotee of hearts, gas calendar everything

if I'm good, I'm excited to get out there. These are these are these warm up shows are going well, What else can I tell you? Yes, so the trip anyhow shows that fear was address it to stay down here in march to replace attitude it enables fixed. that's a monday, if you wanna get it on that what else. I hope I get better soon. I I like being there's something about being sick, that relaxing there's something I enjoy about. Hearing my voice like this, but my brain is not as good as it should be worried sick. I mean it's always a little sick, but not like the congestion, I hope you feel good, ok, boomer,