« WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Episode 588 - Kim Gordon / John Agnello

2015-03-25 | 🔗
Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth put her life story into the book Girl In A Band. But Marc wants to know what Kim's life is like today, after decades in the visual art world, after the dissolution of a pioneering band, after marriage, after parenting. What's next? Maybe the two of them can even give each other pointers on dating.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
All right. Let's do this, how are you what the voters, what the fuck bodies, what the buccaneers, what the fuck's authors mariners w tat this might podcast is it my show? Thank you. Thank you for being here welcomed the show someone, anticipating this show this partition episode of this show Kim gordon sonic youth will be on a bit. Her book is out girl in a band it's called available now in all forms and all book shapes. Look. I just back from new york city and I've got I've got to chill out. I've got to chill out taken it easy, since I I done shooting I was in rochester. As you know, those great shows then, when right to new york, that's meetings to do had some. people to see an
apparently had some food to eat? Apparently It's weird, my brain distorts not cannot things I gotta do idea. I immediately went to this out upon arriving at a ball. Abortion for portuguese and then later that night I went without an go burial, one job names but death, we're hang out Adam Goldberg and I go back to the saga able bush again ape were prodi's again. I caution. so I'm Goldberg he's on this mere cat thing, and he starts shooting this thing he's got to shoot the thing that he said he was going to shoot for himself and then it ended up. He shot shooting me and then me shooting him and with three and a half hours of us on that phone doing some live streaming thing for, like three hundred people got pretty ugly, got pretty ugly I'm even though we can still watch it, we're nice. when I walked well, we of laughs having a good time. We went to the bar The bowery
ran into some horrible women and a guy with a puppet you know how you can tell when some people talk, that there nasty fucked up people inside where, where like whatever their hiding or wherever you their tone, and this was of a sort of seas women were in tv moments, a puppet, system is a producer for a news. I've shows and they were completely snotty in condescending dimly. Any idea who I was and which is fine. Fine, no problem, Most people don't know who I am, but then You know the guy that they were with who at a puppet we add, that's why pull them over there. I pulled me and Adam were doing this dumb thing we were streaming. I saw a guy in the bar with two women and he had a puppet. So I had him. the puppet over, because I thought like spontaneous that guy's got a puppet. Maybe I'll come over, so the three
Come over the guy's got no chops he's got no puppet act. It is just a guy with a but he kept saying this is Larry the tragedy or something I kept saying. You're trainees, not nice, word to use the day day, It's the swaying. Is it's rocketing arts, their feelings and the woman's like. Oh sounds, like you know your. What are you npr? What are you politically correct and I'm like what are you some sort of latent conservative, ditch liking. I I said that out loud and it was not good because you're a bitch in itself as a swaying and derogatory, but it just struck me say this: the condescension, the assumption, politically corrected and one that has just been ass. If something is Defined in unknown to us too, marginalize and hurt someone's feelings, and you need to be aware of it. How was it even saying that I was telling the guy you know? Maybe you should not do that, but then right. There is tension. I just saw the seething weird Troll freak anger just
condescending in the interest spit it out dance around it with all sorts of weird wage in your throat and got set comes pounding through your face to your. ah my balls and in the sweet, lilt in your voice. Of who you are sir here you're in I or being as some sort of now dave, Concealment comes out like dislike pair. I've been lashing out a little so, I gotta get some rest, gotta get some clarity. I get some focused guy get some silver minded shit go one on the left on twitter This I've had a b for the local pizza place over bullshit workmen I like certain kind of pizza they like I come on twitter, like I'm, hung up on the crust I go to or could get beautiful pizza. Jos pizza,
hold it in my hand like what you it over like a beautiful piece of new york, slice pizza, where you can. Foley right now before even taken by nothing. Just is sturdy and beautiful, a perfect pisa. it's a perfect slice, I shouldn't have in a dozen fall the fuck apart in DRC, been swamp and everything else? That's why I like it. I'm crust obsessed, but I don't need it that picture to my local pizza place our need to do that. How do you do tat, my fellow dixon roast wars and turn personal I'll need to do any more, I'm done with it but tat precise time in new york as the weather was nice. So I'm walking down the street new york. Some guy just comes out to me and he takes his headphones, often stand and there is like hey man mark mare, and I am I listened since the beginning of a huge. And it's so great to me, you'd so great to me, you very
sky believes name with J. maybe jason, but maybe jack. Am mike. How you doing man is. I agree I am just can't believe a meeting. I just want to tell him I'm just so happy for your success no you're doing so well, nigh biology since the beginning, and it just great keep going manager so great tat to be witness the whole process like well. Thank you He says where you gonna mike I'm going over to his publishing house So a great! That's great! You know unease it's just so easily. He said he so happy for me. I might well you know just try not to fuck it up and he goes you will you will you're going to fuck it up into my gamma zhang? Oh definitely, you're going to you're going to fuck it up. Grating is while be there won't be there with you when you fuck and it'll be great it'll be great, and I'm like I dunno I dunno. If that's I dunno, if that's true, but but He didn't changes tone and there was the same type of confidence and exciting,
over him in his mind, knowing that I will definitely fuck it up somehow by going to be it's going to be great because we're all going to be hanging out and moving through that together I can't completely say, is wrong, but tat. I feel all right. You know I'm saying so. I got him gordon. I usually do this, but I did read most of her book and I and I went back and listen to many sonic youth. Some I'd never heard before and I just wanted to be prepared for a lot of reasons cause. You know I don't know that damn She's necessarily uneasy interview, maya, the woman updating is a huge fan of hers and Kim her picture with her and I think it was like when the highlights of her life, but to us now to my talk with him, gordon of santa Keith. Her book is zone girl in a band and it's out now
We gotta get cypher. The few I'm not I'm just to I dunno from amateur, but I don't play with anybody that was a gift. That's one of the J mascot acquires. I recognize that I have one of those. Do you do jane. I gave you years my boy They he's been here. He was here. I know I heard his interview. I was impressed prossa top right. You did a good job. it took a while, higher as last year was it until we story he started talking about his dad. Skiing and stuff, now said it was, I gotta go daddy He is now that I've seen him a couple there in places like now, so
what video you shooting for those peaches song call me. I was up there. I am last year when I was here at bay or last summer they invited me to come over and play some down which I did how'd you get involved with it. While I've known her over the years, and this also this friend of mine, this kid vice cop, I might think of him as a kid, because I met him when he and his brother, when they were fifteen, spend X, r x, p x, yeah. They were touring. Around as like super young, nature is a super fast super fast hard core band just casino grow up over the years and then suddenly he was involved with peaches. Anything I record, and they would you be in the video Where they one minute, yeah. I once I did the song, then I'd be in the video you have to what was your part in the song. I hesitate to use wood, but when I went in there it was
it kind of like a minimum, all hip hop track, and I, put something down. And then peaches built a rap around at night than that you know probably added other stuck in my school yeah. Its how's relieve you, and allay, does people come up here? there. They don't know where they are. I sense of what it is. and I am I mad got through. I read most your book, which I don't usually do, but I need I was nervous Do you hear my I just I don't know I just a gun in my head. I didn't know enough about anything now Ouch is you, but when indicate. You know where you come from and what your inches are and the different worlds you involved in. I was like. I am not I'm not up to speed. so then, like you know, I'm googling you Glenn bronx and
I am seeing him for the first time, because he you- because I wanted to do- was kind of our. It was kind of funny. I dunno, if ironic, the right word, but I had to sit through a a michelob ultra commercial before I watch Glenn Branca do some kind of guitar, so that's funny yeah yeah yeah. That was a this is exactly what was supposed to not have to fight right and then I watched I watch the when you saying to the induction nirvana using one the songs aneurysm right watching that when it was on live in like being pretty broken up about it and then, like literally emotionally shattered and I watched it again this morning and I cried again. What is that about going on that day. It was very touching. I mean it was a very emotional actually It thus sound check was really difficult because
They they had. These huge images Kurtz face up on the screen and every bit as over can over well but the whole night of the ceremony was so long and boring exerting shopping at the very high, and I wasn't in I wasn't side cause. I just one to do something. It s very active, and and I was just trying to em channel kurt just said Kennedy, Chris and dave after not seeing them, and that and all these other people like we shared a lot of the same crew, are common and right manager and it was like in the nineties reunion, I do with such an odd theo surreal place to be rock and an end to this kind of elder savage meant. enemies. I would imagine from different points in your e mail from punk rock yeah.
Having been in the business along a guy have to assume that you walk into a room like them. You gathers F fucker, while you know not in a specific way. Just maybe there are some people I just in one actually talk to who write word I would probably like I don't know. And seen sense liked the ban broke up and run through some broke up. So there is some- people I was avoiding this set of disarmament and the attacks, When you got kind of one, are you now give you their sympathy but then draw they want to try to sadness into your hands open? Yet they can help him and it was such an emotional day anyway. So when I first It's a break up at that point, pretty fresh out only so I got divorced have a month. I don't know it was like a couple years. Two and half years render still right here.
It's an ongoing process that people suddenly think happens like as soon as they sincere your separated and then it's over and then who you What is something yeah right right, you, how you bouncing back, can take over five years ten year here, surrenders, I've been divorced twice just to harp. Is the worst near exists, like there's nothing. You can do to make it go away. I'm sorry! I know I mean at a time, but I know I love that we're having ass. I interviewed on valentine, discuss, coveting broken hearted people day I dating either in alike. Variances. Are you? Are you yeah? Sorry I didn't, I think I am. I recently maybe broke up with somebody broke up and me not sure it's unclear well yeah, it's unclear
resolved lay were grown play me. I'm gonna sound today well good. I'm glad I'm getting a painter. That's like a huge manners to the point where our own, maybe you should you should let him who is it? her name is Sarah kane eyes painter and like it I've just recently men sort of backing down. World in trying to understand it. Could I feel like I have waited for so long comedian, but when I was in college, I always wanted to be artist I didn't have when it took her the disan photographs yeah, but in your book you're, very candid, about certainly about the break up, but also by a cow people that kind of built the way he saw the world, and in the end we upright and a lot of men who had a profound influence on how you Let's see the world- and starting go. I guess, with your brother, was the one you really kind of talked about a lot and
Did you see him? Many commander s army, today I was there. You know it's always never last that long and It was fine, like it's always good, to just see, em and see that he is doing. The same, which is not always define yeah he's properly medicated eye level. I mean he, you know he was reciting. This dylan song but he said he wrote it but he remembers the whole all the words he is credible memory, fur for things like would there is sort of like a brilliant to schizophrenia right, I think so mean well did did when you guys we're going up no one. We knew that was what was wrong with them. It doesn't kick, and now we are, he didn't really kick until like his early today Yes, I guess it s about the time
right. Yeah and you know I think he was taking a lot of acid and exacerbate a lot of people taking a lot of acid, it's hard to figure out who is trip on through which on which of creativity are right whose eccentric her he was out eccentric kid and What was your relationship when you were kids, my life up to him, and he teased me mercilessly, like I'm Every older brother maturities is the rise there, but I was the sensitive in He was really overly critical and on it wasn't a good combination and if anything, tat, because as a primary relationship with china scarred for life. Well, It made me kind of want to hide my feelings here. Cause, I cried really is really here, the unknown we had physical fights to, but I mean when we are teenagers. We were friends, vietnam, we smoke,
together earlier was he had a view in terms of liquid? What are you liked light? It did happen, Oh yeah, I mean he read em, you know nietzsche and sorry tran turn demand to others, and he got it. I dunno I thought I had it, then you know, but he was also willing to shakespeare and literature. He was wrote, poetry, and so it's like a unique guy yeah is your mom's will ever know both my parents or my mom died in two. To my dad and ninety eight and your dad was a sociologist yeah in education. At u c, l a and e bay I see like this with this problem with me reading the book is now. I know things and apply in and say that, where nobody, Yet I was kind of interesting only comes into your er telling you what your story is, but
better you than I have to do it. Oh really, okay, I could just recite it all, because I just go yes- and I know a lot of volume happening, though, is kind of fascinating that your father was the first to sort of catalog. These high school group well yeah I mean he did. we in social study, You know, as his thesis yeah was some square in social terms and jocks. axe, but there was no stoners or bite like no and then my brother, when my brother is in junior high, he did his own and then it was like surfers and essays I bet your year old man was the guy who figured like sort of broke it down. Huh yeah, it was that's like one of the most important sort of distinguishing things in in our lives is to be able to I do a high school and going those donors yet again. Says in it, then it really exist. Yeah, mesdames bobby this obvious thing I like in a then sometimes people, inside the obvious when
but does it want to? I notice that there is no mention of really learning how to play guitar is a reason for that rule. Is that you didn't know. You know I saw gain to accede, An interview sally terms from the meat comes in a red man. She had been reading of the albertini spoken and just talking about how punk rock was this thing that suddenly ignite edge a whole bunch of activity and sent one in it. action that you would necessarily have gone here, and I mean when I picked up a guitar base. It was definitely way posts punk, but opt in to were in our help develop net. What no way boy has another you know, DR downtown kind of, ground music, and so spirit of it was also bear, and it was really it was. about learning how to play guitar right,
I didn't notice until typed, I read most of the work that like they're, usually when you read a musician or a bands, but there's that relationship that is built with an instrument at some point and it just wasn't near was like no, you just sort of happened. Yeah I mean, I think that I felt stupid. I haven't read that book, but I She talks about how girls in punk rock. They did way different relationship to music and how they work to play area. I think a lot of boys find a play in their bedrooms. The saint records ripe or from other deeds are from other data. I mean that thing like that's a nice lick. vicky exactly. Why do that? Again, is that a lot of that, but I You knew you ought to be an artist. now you ve come: have you come back around a visual arts yeah, I'm an end since two thousand and three has been pretty much painting
I'm kind of doing installations are conceptually based, painting I was at the plan from early on cause, I mean do spend a lot of time. Like there's a lot of talk of dance. well. I did also want a beer dancers it when I was a eighteen. Your bet my mother's heard, discouraged at why Ah she decided the tough life, which is true. It is any errors. Yeah, I think dances. the hardest, very specific yeah I am also not into thing really conventional, so I'm like, music I was drawn to us. Not. invention of music or were even early on. I mean you talk like oh no yeah, I mean I, the records I listened to growing up was, but I mean as when I went to as far as when I was in new york- and I first saw Noah bands, does that wow? That's amazing.
I think I can do that right. When did that start with so much free yeah when did that start to break apart, though, like I mean in your mind, like I know from the book, I can't I just can't even imagine what it was like to grow up in l a in the sixties. It must have been amazing, yeah I mean it was. I guess definitely are in less crowded want to know, I could to know that many people that might have may Charles Manson it must have intimate landscape yeah. I don't know it was some like. I didn't really like living here. I wasn't really that is, to connect, central nausea like near the sun shining the same every day. Right We seem to have around some beauty in it as time when I now definitely I mean I it's my favorite place to look at things visually, how the idea Self expression it becomes.
customize everything from your house to your car to write culture. To again I thought you know it's all so can visually, listing and- and it was sort of fascinating to me that there's these people in your wives- that are big people and then are a lot of us all- know that sort of kind of resurface in your life waiter right I mean it's, it's very odd to me, but I guess it's really not that either danny elfman and you went to school together and that you had this relationship. He says thing to do and you ga very close when your high school here do you still talk to haven't. I mean I've run into a couple times per annum of referendum, Mine plays volleyball something s house once a week at least got a game of some kind going how does he factor into your whole sort of like the way he saw yourself at that time? How it's sort of pivotal? like. He was really caught the first stone, gruel a friend where you know we
they talked we're and he was pretty supportive for while or let you know like he like you, did so to believe that I would always be an artist her. I can be successful. Do you think Who is counted them? Yes, is how things are totally untrained, talented purse india like out in where he suddenly he was doing music and it started with that I go biogas, a street theatre he actually did on the street here they the kind of like a marching can about his elder brother and who is married to this beautiful? and woman here hurry and dumb they'd. The magic circle together in paris and that's worth thirty pm is kind of like they did like tat jazz in saint. We eyes and others can have more cost There was more like the otter call in a circus way. It wasn't knew it wasn't. New way was new way was even it is it happening at new? Well, it doesn't, but those
easy here like in the sick. I do I wouldn't sixty nine you're. Likewise, sixteen or fifteen yeah. It was just and then the seventies just got all dark and weird that sixty nine was a weird year. Yeah yeah did you do much drive. Did some acid, undue like tonnes her eyes ass. They like smoked pod. I guess did you ever go to san francisco much oh yeah. up there one m. When I was fifteen, there is a flight you could take for like ten dollars, but ask light and I say with friends my parents. I could go to the filmore, whose outline ballroom I saw my we grey it s an airplane there at the original filmore yeah. Do you like those, then oh yeah, I see I told you, I, like you too, early into that those records when you near it going to be an artist of this idea said in pike cause was
because of the trip to new york or when you went to art school in toronto. One was there a moment where you like. This is because it such like. I start to think about it myself. It such an insulated, unique life it has it's own language and it's own people and the guy that was one of the insecurities I had about talking to. You is why I know a lot of artists, but I dunno, like these specific bunch. You ran with my aunt, really the music thing now, and into it. You made it one. So when you were like a at york university was that where you started to sort of like make decisions around music, not really it I am in ny. We had ban, but it wasn't serious. We made it up for an hour media class and we are just bored, so we just did that, but But I guess it gave me a taste for performing, but I so when I moved to new york is really to be a visual artists and then when I met dan, graham and-
they asked me he's a pretty eccentric artist stir he's a sculptor me is a conceptual orders who now he makes a lot of pavilions that are increasing as an architecture, and they have materials like tat a glass he's milly into voyeurism. Actually in things like your religion with him with long right I mean you here. Will I lived on cuba? upstairs for me, so eyes, rivers, your guide, our yeah yeah, we're yet in new york. But you met him in California right. I met an ad keller. It set a lecture in your parents kind of hipsters weren't there They were just they weren't. and now they were academics. They had four who are more bohemian. They were more security I guess we're coming
depression them, but there is still within the college environment here and they were a super support above dr endeavours and that sort of thing, but it took a long time arise. Your brother was in trouble here because, probably they who may be just odd, and they just from their generation that they didn't believe in psychiatry. Here, We had a problem. You just had to deal with it yourself than non right. Do you have any about emu? I mean only in the last three years. You know today, current at the hurt- so yeah. But as I realize I I go around thinking myself. Is this really traditional sort of middle class grounded person. And I am a grounded person, but I I I don't
that's. Not my life really are. What I do is, I guess, more bohemian I've always sulphur. I realise that I came so carry this idea of myself and that maybe also one having a daughter I wanted to almost over. and Satan have this really stable environment? That was some almost so square? You know you and the house here and they went away, but wasn't by right. I don't know I just I realise what away think of myself like that, actually not like bad law, but I have that in me. You know right for you. I came from you did that happened to really of messages happened after the baby ray. I think I always you know when I moved to new york. I was always I can't I'm just so conventual middle class,
really ever going to be punk rock for years, so punk rock, I mean, I think, for old generation of people you're like it, but better than the thing was like, and it's good just to be yourself. You know it's like why mckenna, make some persona like susie sewer lydia in order to like I'm, not goth girl, make decisions like that. You seem to come up with your own thing just, but I think that was part of the you, the hard core. Movement was really a just about being or the like yourself so when you first get to new york, where nineteen eighty, eighty one, nineteen any new Evan down the worry side and like I, I moved there and eighty nine and was the just starting, sort of like clean up or whatever. Now that was there still a dope around stuff, but I guess at that time
for an insane. You scare chaos everywhere. Well, it was very downtown, and so a lot of it was kind deserted to ya, know tibet tribe. at a rally and and soho, and it was dirty- and you know the money, the the city was pretty bankrupt and then what was your plan when you got there Ah, to kind of see, shows and make connections with maybe try and find a gallery, but I was pretty intimidated by what was your marry at that time my medium was more conceptual and in fact I started doing. Can interventions in people's apartments. like the kind of psychological and here designer o roon like altering something physically and then making a piece of art that sort of
reflected something about the person goddammit example. I asked and if I could do something and in his apartment and armed and grandpa witches was it because our apartment maktub in the kitchen. and so he didn't look at all, so I got rid of his stove. I put- put the tsar rubber. they tile down on the floor, that he had always admired that was inside. for asia italian kind of flooring, and then I am get away. color of Debbie Harry? blondie cause? He was a huge fan here on a piece of typewriter paper, something anyway, so that's what in then I wrote about it and got it should a magazine, and now is the peace yeah
and he did several of those I did a few of them. I didn't do that many, so the arc of it was you, going to somebody's environment incentive, take early something of their life and make some alterations and then write about it in an art magazine yeah. But how do you really get a gallery with that? it or just have an alternative. To that I mean eventually, I mean add, a show at this alternative space which one why columns, which, coincidentally I had a survey, show there a year ago less. How really is in a different locations circle full circle yeah. It's interesting to me- that because I want to some of those shows when when I was younger, I know it and installations. Are they know that the woman I'm with now does installation is, but I always wondered like will, There is a moment there. When we're down gram, tells you not yet locked into a gallery into that arc of a painter, because there is nowhere else to go from there. That,
create? A conversation sums arise course with the culture. Did that what was your idea of art outside of just being young and understanding the context of of of the world you are working in. What did you want to do? What? What did you think? The purpose of it was well kind of sort of an intellectual conversation right arm with old object gonna bet thing at some, just there's something that reflects suddenly about the culture in a way but also has a whole dialogue with canada.
history of art as an object, and you know, and and just all the different sides of it three I'd say it's completely self referential and and and constantly that it's almost like it's like philosophy, keeps building on the language right yeah. Until until somebody keeps you just got to keep blowing it up right, yeah, that's the idea like waiting for the new guy to blow up the art thing, but then you talk a lot about the eighties and just how it it was an era you couldn't differentiate between that art and sort of for arts He died in the business world that co opt in it, Well, I mean you, I think wall street was, booming and on it when there is a generation of artists- and they said well we're not doing that work in it to make it ourselves our own way and they went back to sort of object, making and kind of fetishized objects. And and then suddenly, like painting and objects, were like that's whatever was doing of the new generation and cullen picture.
generation. So when you were when you start writing about music, and finding their way into music. I mean you have to reckon with a lot of like in a big sort of do. personalities, where you sort of like I- and I know that you erode specifically about rock guy- the new programme, and somehow another that outdo enter that world? I don't know. Maybe I was looking for a better relationship with a brother type, we're here but our ear remembers little girl. Looking at my dad's books like summing up, and work like what is an arm. Then I just some article about, I dunno I was. I was trying to write kind, foe, intellectual things makes some ridiculous premise and then try to prove it, and so
So was Joe. One was kind of mail about male bonding right, and with those who does your satires a worm. Real could well and it wasn't like there. They were real criticisms, but it was some What's the most extreme thing I can write, that's considered intellectual or something right right? Maybe I'm not intellectual, but I kind of was playing her with that. Like your and our side, that right about male sex holiday as a woman like do they make waves, did you did you get some attention to those rules so I was actually the only thing I really did more publicly before aren't making it's funny to me that, like you met well goes in is, as he says, name on the street in westward here when you were a kid almost well,
like I'm eighteen or have you might showing garbage prince? Yes, and I worked for him framing hundreds of those it's, it's just so fluke, ish! Isn't it weird? You can't make this stuff up right, then he turns out to be the biggest art dealer in the world and then you work again That was your in new york. Yeah my god and of course you remembered you- I mean I worked more for foreign nina his partner, india, noncommercial space but yeah, and then I eventually had a show with them less spring or rising the recently most in that chair, It was a series of paintings using am I wouldn't wreath as mask asking device and then spray painted take it up and then you have the sort of ghost image of the wreath and in our work to find fine.
being that was pretty suburban, are like you could get a home depot and then cannot transform re onto this more m or not. Maybe they do look tacky but my have a show in this schindler house, upon tat emma mulholland, where I made them things in the Basement- and I was in the idea, staging as like home, we're great work. Corn, chosen yeah, how like real estate agents yeah, so I was kind of into that well good yeah. It was super fun, so when you first saw the no way vans. Who is the first one you saw where women that, when did a moment happen, were to happen. We're like oh shit, I don't remember it might have been at someplace called franklin furnace, sir. I really can't remember who jago is good, I mean
I just missed all that, so he was an be. The very idea of them was to not be identifiable as a movement for has a sound. Well, I don't know, I don't think people really thought about it. there A compilation that was put ah that brain some brought brainy known to this artist, spain that, while these bans are playing an early, ended up kind of cherry picking, certain bands to be on this record and then a kind of god people's noses at a giant inserted. cut the community sphere. We were what little there was. I mean other people? When I got to new york, pretty much most of it, was over. I some mars I saw dna was. I still arouses. I just sit around. That was amazing. That was one of the first two shows I saw pretty radical yeah I I like I just got into a fairly recently because I'm always way to the Marty. What was it about? that guy he was
scary. I go on to the audience and to go right up to in it, saw heiresses chilling areas a minimal, but on He wasn't bouncing yeah Hunting like when I watched him as a cow shit. I just ain't, never seen anything like then he saw life, their servers really. I am and you and at that time, so like a while that stuff. So what what? What You d get started with it: whoa dan. Had this are there Graham had other performance peace where he would have a mirror behind him, and then he would, look anti audience and describe the audience, and then he would turn around and describe himself. with the audience behind him and his gestures, and so he when it suits do that within our girl back
cause. He was writing articles about all grow bands and the slits and He asked me if I wanted to make up a ban, for this p and so in. I'm entered introduce me to this girl miranda hoop as a base player, and this girl, Christine Hahn, who played drums Wed the glen broncos banned at the time. The static so we are and I play guitar. So we wrote these songs and took lyrics took lurks firma women's, seems like cosmo. Some girl, they had a whole text on the back, like I'm a cause pardon girl, the problem is, it was almost like. Hocking blues thing right and another one was just add copy about, separates, at a slap on the rights and the right egg. Anyway, so we we em,
made some songs and we did this performance. We are supposed to After a song have some interaction with the audience. We didn't really know exactly what he wanted us to do, and ah We are also so nervous psych, I think Christine just gotta during her turn and went to the bathroom and came back and he was kind of like pissed like he didn't think it was. Successful and but I felt that it was Like paper, you only knew what was going on right. My scrap of I think just making people taking him out of there. Conventional audience. Performers situation is always very interesting and I think that's what people were also drawn to about her because, like you just took it, way far right mary. I gotta
same with envy. Yes, yes, of course, the area yeah his deadly amazing, now. So that's what you felt at first time, it's interesting there, you know was manufactured, serve event by this dude yeah right who deserve the end. Then, are you didn't do it? You have a common approach with into what? Where was he allegedly? I now ask you It is a big ideas. I think eta. he ate some big ideas, but No, I mean you know it was kind of you're staying when he was trying to do. I think it was mine, too, active a woman s out of a woman tradition, being in a passive position where people project step on him in that we would be active and some and although we already play so,
something about crossing back into that barrier. He rightly I just like really similar to maybe being a sound of comic uruguay, a stand. yeah. I it's a it's a very weird thing cause. I know in the in the book. There was a little piece about chappelle. In that event, it's it's very the space. You can choose to occupy you as an artist of any kind. It really is, up to you write and you can sit in it in whatever discomfort. You lied to me however long you want to do it. Sometimes I resent the audience. Sometimes I resent that their expect something for some time. It was a you know. I feel, like oh we're all great we're all one mind and then other times the amount and pay for something here, those younger yeah. Definitely I several here similar in you know
But that's just me some guys just go tell jokes, yeah music, easy way to do things right is that is not your way writes my way I mean there seems to be an almost active resentment of the easy way to do anything. Do you have that still a little bit I really like doing this improv. Do I have with bill nace as his two guitars in focusing its? fine and bed scary cause, I go out and we don't really have anything planned right. We make it up every night, and yet we know how each other plays, and so it seems like a bad. And what do you do that? just at three shows here, one the getty one at that go and one in orange county. Oh yeah in Australia, we were in a couple of festivals, yeah I mean we ve done touring in europe, and we put record out last fall
yoga less fallen manager. Ok, that was really surprisingly well with. What's it called it's called coming apart, We have we play with them film behind us in slow motion that right, it's so slow that a kind implies there's a narrative of some kind, but you don't really. It is ever evolve into anything when you replaying with with the band with with the original zadig youth. We met Thurston was another man yeah. He was in a bank of the coachman thea my friend miranda took me to see with a good man. Ok they're dead, jangling guitar thing can have kind of a new. We ain't irregular iraq really goes out to call it raised. Iraq has outward there, hey yeah, yeah, that's school year.
Did you like any of those guys? Did you like berlin or any oh yeah, sure burn not so much early talking hands here were some were they around? They resist snubbed they weren't, I mean they were famous by man. You know their area. I mean there's since all those band thy seventies, bright connecticut, whose connecticut kid the train in the city or whatever, so meaning that show yeah nevertheless showed his band actually that you saw was, I agree, and I was there last shows is ending and it wasn't me nothing, and then he was also use playing with this girl miranda. I may now and mariners who asked me to a conscious girlfriend at the time. So I they're playing with, though with them via an arm. After their snake said it got together and we had to say
He was a keyboard player and wait a series of different drummers and changed our names and finally arrive. at this name? Sonic youth and it was kind of like Ben. is that a as we didn't really want to play with a keyboard player anymore and wages that, apart at ways from her and mentally right, we know we newly, he was around There are some put on this festival at why coms the noise fast, because there is nowhere to play for ban, so it became at ten day long bans is kept. Asking way civic kinds of man through any business, really kind of a wide range. You know it was. I mean people downtown. I wasn't them. open it was over kind? Yet punk was definitely a and c b julius was kind of starting to be over. Well, We base was so going, but her eyes had closed. Then I think two or three had closed. I interviewed Thurston once in a while. I can't lose embarrassed.
How was it when I hesitated evening show here an idea and I, like you, were trying to talk. I try and talk about noise man's by an unknown in nine. You know what it was. Weird I mean tat was a term. I would say that as a derogatory term right, I'm like that, of her eyes said. While these bans you sound like noise right, so No one really liked that term. So it's misery took it up rang programme it was deafening derogatory, so wasn't real movement really you know there was there- is some like johns- are in an improper going on when they got there. Aren't any mercury goes pray netting factory george. Dare man, that's pretty wild shit riah. Here he comes at a new music and opposition and jazz It was not like a kind of heavy yeah We weren't really like at that time
There was no will clear move matters like the swans and ass in life skull and there were just didn't feel like. We didn't fit in right, ready, media and on there is like the Hoboken pop scene with individual walls in the bar. It goes and that they were like the ones that were popular and it's kind of this middle zone. Yeah know you guys kind of owned it, but who did you tour with first? What we just toured with ourselves? I mean, brought along. And ass her when they were on one tour. They were torreon, station wagon they were really young and they open for you here so they re so by outside the tours where you open for larger accident happened only our we didn't. That was nothing we are interested in and ah at my hearing not asked well we're. Never in anna, except where they do it when they are asked us to do it when more andrea, but we weren't? It never really into that.
What were you into what was the idea? It was really babies, no you're getting a gig. It be gb rise than making. record urge thing going on. where, and how did you evolve? The sound I mean you guys would just sit there and work it out because there's you know the dissonant sound and like the guitars tuned, weird and then there's droning going on, I mean how did you know when you clicked it when it was when it was happening saturday in our world? like things that were contrast, is like a melody line and then dynamics writings that loud things got soft, I was like we just kind of really played it kind of form did organically. Is Could this be arrangements It's interesting like it's an it's a completely definable sound that you guys repeated yeah there you have it like sonic youth sounds like sonic youth and no one really sounds like you. So
It must have felt there must have been a groove achieved. Kind of growing you knew when you hit a right, yeah guess I hear what was that neil young tour? When was that what that was: was them osman after goo, our first major label this wild me that real bans that young people that are in it for the long haul have fine sound, you can hear it in the earliest music. Do you ever listen? That's sometimes no it's weird. Sometimes I walk into a store someplace. I hear something like a contest: so familiar I I put the fucking mc five on when it when weighing kramer came over by humans, walking up the driveway and they've only got three records out of there and it's plane and I'm like you, recognize that he's I I doubt he did. He not did not know anyone
anything funny I didn't like I dabbling in here a tuning, and I can tell you it's us because of the yes, it's a specific dissidents were yet system in our, not that other people dont use different earnings. Guitars, but something about the the tone in and when you do Why me, I know they obviously of what's happened with the persons happened, but when was good. Did you guys loved I ain't right. I mean I got that drummer to state crazy, yeah he's a greater great yeah and you all got along for the most part was part. You know I mean, there's always a little band dynamics but We know that the older we got. I think we I thought we were learning how to get along better yeah did you have any elderly hard when you're democracy and then you're all trying to mix a record in? I think when we found people that we all felt good working where I was.
It's better. You very candid about the dissolving the relationship in the book. And I wrote a book about my divorce and it's it's very cathartic to do that, and it feels good but when you win, when you write that stuff, when you talk about the specifics of it you do it to purge yourself or to help others or now just party or short in this I think well for me, its writing as its partly. I can't think of us, I'm writing, or I can't figure out how I'm feeling about something. and when something like that happens to you that so co spin, often use looking back at your whole life like how did I get to where I am and agro? Really figure out where I am now writing this. I did, and I tried to be as minimal about it, as I could, when I want,
true in even talking about it, you are very diplomatic about your parents and about eaters no, but he didn't really completely throw anybody under the bus and it's hard not to everyone- I wrote my book out in my my father, one right under the bus and now I'm older than you more mature me. That's what he's still around, and I caught a lot of shit about it. I don't know how my ex feels about it, but I tried to be it's very hard because all I'm sure that some people will be bombed at about my book yeah, I don't know you write the ears with this thing. You said, I wonder whether you can truly love or beloved back by someone hi who they are. It's made me question my whole life and all my other relationships kind of, to my mind, a highlighted is that russia has highlighted the thing yeah that kind of spun me out, because then I'm thinking about art and about what you're really digging for and is it some sort of something that
has to happen in the present. That's completely different in mind blowing or is it some kind of truth, you're looking for and then when you come up with something like that, what it does when you lose your identity like Identity is so wrapped up with another person, and that person is also part of your work and your income and your everything. Why that's so? It just like obviously no matter what someone does. It is too to people who are our greatest situation. So I'm in I just sort of wanted to examine myself see how I can t it is their didn t writer and then you are wearing these words. I codependent narcissist well I know they seem so therapy talk, but where I I don't you know like it
Someone can be a narcissist or have you know, we're all somewhere on the spectrum? Sure of that I am, but then there is like some like narcissus disorder or ride through their morning. Having narses are like a toxic borderline scary stuff. That is So what you know beyond that, like it's true, you really help pre upon my word that word. If you you're in love in oh and people do change and it whether they change, because they were pressed a big part of who they are, and I have to say I'm sure I was up in the whole thing to my marriage. It has not it's kind of brought me. Maybe four and allowed me to bear quickly get back to where I feel like. I and when I should be doing now, making art and things
really inherent inheriting authentic to you, I married who I am and that I actually like put on the back burner as color upsetting to me right. in retrospect the unrighteous ways. I guess you like I dont know what drives a band, but I guess the compulsion did just keep working is a lot of it right sure and its cambaluc machine. It just keeps going in here, and now and he was like. I dunno he's a little older than me. I mean it, it's so weird, I guess, and- and I I can understand what you're saying before about how you're feeling like middle class. Her or conventional is like it is in its not an unusual tail right, the announcer its way it. So it's It just gets and helping special happened. Somebody right tell piano fuck up god, dammit so,
yeah and I ve no sense than I've met yell several come a couples are friends whose marriages of completely fallen apart and am You know, and then they re reading my book and they're just like relating to it and right as strange what it such in and also. I think that the idea of technology leaves this ike all this in it. That feeling that you had were it was was like he was dying to be caught. I you know I right right right, because I know that when my first broke up, and I was the bad guy. You know it just you're a coward, and then you get caught and then you're kind of relieved in a way or something well, yeah, something but then, but it didn't. But then you kind of want your cake and you want to you to to, and you wanted you wanted your child to everything to be okay, yeah, you don't want to be satisfied that person are horrible, yeah like
break of. It is just like. I definitely related to an end, and do you think I'm outside of this? This writing. As you sort of your take rio yourself or whatever? What are you gonna do like some of this pain is informing other than the performance I saw on the rock and roll high on which it was this dating to me. feel that you're gonna hurt yourself more with this stuff? I don't I mean I'm right now. I feel ok, oh yeah, good. You know, I'm stirs. Obviously I've been so busy, so you know times when you're, not busy that you can feel sad or I've had so many are amazing. Things happen to me since then, and we have to make great things. going on.
It's pretty amazing to watch em and when I watch some stuck his eyes grew watching things of you guys playing and in you know, you covering ike, is like a heavy sigh and then we might just these moments where you guys are all there Then he wrote the book badges dodging guitars ideology you're in it, but then on the periphery. You just say guitars? Is gonna die urea another? when you talked about that. I found compelling and I could relate to this perpetual sense of not doing enough of insecurity of maybe feeling like a fraud, of some kind artistically d, still get that Ah I I'm sure some people feel like. I should do play music and not make art or something Some people think I should play convey I'll songs are utterly. I people get weird ideas about you. Could you ever pay conventional songs, no dummy
is reading this books, probably the most conventional thing. I've ever done very straightforward. his eyes reading some of that. As some your essays cause. I got home another book of the hysteria. different delegate. This book is very kind of like close to them. yeah I mean I liked I mean parts but were really boring to re. Does like the ham, the nuts and bolts of talking about things that you feel like you, ve talked about views are just kind, just wikipedia a raincoats online rights. The age of forty, ensco? Who have Google yeah yeah, but the oil writing about elaine early neo in certain things were and write about the. your daughter, too. I mean I get that bit. Where are you here for the first time that got choked up and his cry. Yeah how's she doing good she on, because the chicago our institute,
third year student and has a great boyfriend and she's nonsense high school, but they they weren't you other than by air and they worked out. Yeah he's a really good musician and she's gonna go the music route, no she's in earnest. Painter here. It's do you feel static about that. Oh yeah, I'm thrilled. I mean I love she's, so like one of my favorite but to hang out with she's, so cool, so sweet. Well I hope I did did justice korea may its valentine say I thought. Maybe we could trade the Eating experiences are causing well see. I give advice for me I am Why I'm doing this painter nowadays, all new thing issues I completely consumed like artists are in her heart,
and I'm not used to that type of detachment more needy. I I'm not a good data yeah. I don't really know how to do it here. I was it twice, and I know I dunno that and certainly even in in a certain type of limelight, long enough to where it becomes very difficult. The day when you're a public person right and in people know you yeah see after me, for these people that are going to pretend like they ve, never hurt you before aroused date in your pool. depends. What you want. All I know is that I have I've gone very cynical about what asian ships and about love and about why get down there. His age, one, fifty one. Where am I to do anything I want do you know forever name issue here so that Let's get it hurts a christmas, that sort of where life, where I'm kind as I don't you know, you go
I got my own baggage. I get that major laden like why not just have fun if that's possible right. What are we looking for this point exactly my guess, I'm looking for someone to start a whole life where I don't think so you know what are you experiencing I don't know well I I was actually out with a friend who, on this really good writer, and she I witnessed cousin still her idea by me she was hanging about relationships and how she It allowed updating the wench, dad here and before she met her husband and she Well, it seems like their two kinds of our people. Are relations ships like the first kind, where you know that They want to set you up in a suit with them together. Completely enmesh area here alive, re together? Yes, super can mashed.
and the other kind where you can go in and out of each other's right lives, and you have space right am, I would definitely be more of the second. you sure you know like any on space yacht mentally idea. That sounds very good to me. But emotionally I'd. I don't know like we have whatever's gurgling up there in terms of needs her? How that's going to use me as a puppet I do not always quite clear. That's a big challenge. I you a virgo libra here almost a year has bearing on this possibly workers. When you were talking about, then maybe arising sands worker. Maybe I don't know I gotta. Look it up. charts time. Baggy again gets well over woman, but am by giving them? When you talk about projecting a fantasy on people like that, like that whole thing,
Like you know there, there's some definite you. Definitely we your wisdom coming through its getting like that whole idea of you're here, making somebody up to fit in a way you need, and then it's only a matter of time before they just a boy. You re that's a fuckin problem, yeah, that's upon the edge I've been talking about this evening. you may people were like you dont know why they like you liked to they like you because, it's all part of who you are anyway, what you do right, whether it's right yearly year so of course are gonna like you because of you do also. That's like snow cunning, weird, you kind of doubt it and then you, I guess, feel like once they get to know you that, maybe I'm so you, but I mean you know you have a universal right, that they won't like yours, or them we're? Why would they ah said think loves the insane.
I don't take their steered, like I don't know, like I've, been taught overtime and from bad experiences that you know what I experience as what is love really mean to any one person. You know that There is this intensity that happens, and there I As you get older, you can't deny the craziness of the relationships, and then I think that what's happened. To me. Is that you did you just live with his heartbreak? It doesn't always doesn't appear to sort of phase and intensity. and ages it becomes right. This way Thing that just gonna percolates air, and then I guess, conform, love again by the certain points like how much drama, how much bullshit you wanna it's true, but then I any find yourself and crazy land here. Like its good that you have a child is growing up nicely and you have that respond by many that I'm stores like yeah idiot here I mean his arm in arm com now on
but you did that yeah I feel a little unsprung like what now now I feel like a teenager or something. What are you leaving good people, the good people to hang out with yeah near the dating cool people yeah. I may not have that. I don't know what my dating statuses right now, but are you with like go round. Are our age were? Must the younger you meet anyone, my age, never weird may not be good. With younger. Why yeah you think Follow me younger good, I'm glad you do, and that is nice ice to hear good men always gets over bad rap for that yeah. I understand now why they do it yeah good for you, is it: oh. You also mentioned any over glad a miserable experience with this. He stole in your life
Now you know what danny ethic just think as a manager now or something I dunno all. He knows he came into air america when I was a morning guy there and just fired me ah, and he This weird kind of like confused medicated person wandering around the house how ha ha ha that They brought him in a sea of for reasons that I don't know that was in two thousand and five, maybe yeah, but nike use. Definitely one the villains in the the mark marin narrative, but am so? What are you gonna do into our do. Do music, yeah, again, you know do are mostly art, but also on to music, you didn't you ever forgive them. Man Ah, I hope so near, I hope so someday. All right, but on its ears? Actually, you get there,
you know, your daughters are grown up and you know how to deal with that thing. I've like yeah we you cynical as tat area. You seemed to me thanks. It's great talking to, and I appreciate you come, I'm so happy to be here good, I'm each vanity or show you thank you for this book? I liked it more straight and I have listened to all the psyche records your favorites on youth record. What because I hadn't heard dump the first one that I ever did you ever? Even I don't even know you like listening yet what there's like its? We want to talk to musicians I can like somebody, but not listen to every day. Of course, do you know? How can you do that? daydream, nation, goo and dirty or where it like. I remembered when you came out. I bought a cassette tape so yahoo right had on cosette and remember it now, isn t it a lot and then, like you know, things happen.
So those three I really was familiar with began like I never went all the way back. So I did that now, when move it forward and I got you know it I talked to musician, I get to like we and then like, and I dunno never knew who claimed Glenn branca was I'm sure plenty of people are listening like of course he didn't asshole like how could you not know like those people, but it's great to listen to it all again and enter and to talk to you I was nervous, but I think it went good. I was afraid that you're going to cry come on. Why do people say that now I guess it's like I gotta will I cry easily if I'm in the a certain mood or something well, if you like, I get there were so like you made me cried this morning. You made me cry this morning. I did want you to feel like I, I don't. I didn't feel dirty like an idiot. Oh thanks for talking to church,
that's it. That's the show tightened. You're talking to him gore nine joint meeting her and and she was right here in my house. Go to dear father convoy, deputy of parties and remember the music, by John montagnier, other music Today's episode was by DJ cope with czech imagination dates. People check those days. Because we added shows in Boston toronto. we had a show and asheville philadelphia prick where's the selling out houston sold out eritrea. Product comes right, calendar and see what I'm coming, what a worn out still getting over a cold. I dunno what these can be that box anymore, because it's caused trouble with box. Can I use.
What that one?
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Transcript generated on 2022-09-17.