« WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Episode 741 - Ron Perlman

2016-09-12 | 🔗
Actor Ron Perlman is often buried under layers of makeup, whether he's playing Hellboy or the Beast or some other humanoid oddity. But Ron's not hiding anything when he joins Marc in the garage, revealing his heartfelt thoughts on the entertainment business and his evolving role in it. Plus, Ron shares a Marlon Brando story to rival the best of them.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
All right! Let's do this! How are you at the fuckers what the plot bodies, what the buccaneers, what the fuck Adele it's, what the fuck again what's happening. I marked mare- and this is my part- gas, w thea can't to it, I mean a large hotel room, not a fancy hotel room. I guess it's fancy for a hotel One goes to on the road. It is a holiday and express they are not paying that plug. I'm just trying to give those people that do the traveling, a sense of where I'm at so it's a large room with a big bed and there's a little kitchen's operation here with a microwave and a fridge in ugly sink, there's a couple of chairs over there- and I don't know gone on over there, we will discuss it. But if I sit I'm left my own devices and I picture the possibilities of what could happen in to sort of that.
Lounge chairs in a hotel suite outside of rochester new york sky's the limit anywhere a nice business meeting to a three day, crank bender. and all that entails today on the show we have a iran pearlman. You might know him from the idea, Anarchy show that thing and yeah, you might seem ron on my show that was fun with great work and with him or you I'll be watching his original amazon series hand of god sees in one's up inside too is coming. He also has a book out sons of anarchy. Sorry, I don't do that on purpose, I'm just the old man I'm starting to old man a bit. You have the thing: what the thing it's my father, in town, by the way, he's right, the hall in rochester. What what is it about good question? Maybe your ass,
and wisely on the shell weren't. You talk anew and right now I don't know that out be great for everybody. I don't know that he's really on the mike personality. I don't know if that's necessary by will tell you this he's down the hall and I can feel the vortex from here he's wearing five rooms down in a similar room. I know what's going on in the chair in that room, a probably a bit of sad reflection, but He was getting back to IRAN. Permanent yeah he's got a book out called the easy street the hard way at sir. that's our paperbacks I'll talk to run in a little bit. But let me get you up to speed with what's happening with me. If that's ok those you her checking out. Good riddance good riddance to you, but I've got things to talk. out and you're missing out the tour I'm doing two shows at the wilbur theatre, embossed Massachusetts september, twenty fourth, and then I will be campbell hall at you see as being santa Barbara October twenty first,
Big show at Largo october. Twenty second, I'm doing a a club at the ice house october. Twenty third and, of course there are a few tickets left for carnegie hall november forth in new york city, and I mean that there are a few tickets left. I would get those tickets, they are going, it is happening, so those are that's Update in terms of what's going on with me personally have not started. Shooting the new show on netflix have not started shooting glow. I am now in rochester new york. I was talking about before last thursday, my maya significant other my partner, maya, lady friend, my my who, all someone came up with a good one about my love. My my lovers show Sarah keynes, our show at garral gallery led along in new city, went beautifully a great event: man, thursday night real art opening chelsea
I'll in new york, so out of other openings on the streets, every allotted what came out so I want to thank the fans who came out fans of mine who had never met me or seen art or that art there. Why did a lot of my fans are creatives? And I don't like that word how about artists? Let's go with artists. Why do people came out to the show that heard about it on my show were painters who paint to me talking and then came to see, maya my partner's paintings at at Our real along, but I'll, tell you. Man, as somebody grew up with me. or who painted as a hobby she painted, but she meant business. She went to graduate school and didn't finish, but but she she's painting again. I was brought up to like art. I was brought up around art. I was brought up to appreciate art and I thought of myself as an artist. I did some very cutting edge of photographic essays sophomore year of high school. Very provocative, probably way ahead.
Their time. I did some some powerful silk screen work. Maybe junior year in graphics class, also made some business cards for a band. I did. I never did any painting, mostly photography, but I did some combined media stuff that We got the attention. It deserves. A senior year high school in some drawing, I did a very, very m provocative and cutting edge portrait of John lennon on the eight by ten, the came with the white album that one a best of show award in my high school archer I'm not to my own horn. Here, I'm just em I got out. You know I got out just in time. before I ruined my life trying to do that, because there are people better at it, and one
being my girlfriend. Sarah kane, who does these large, abstract paintings, and I started to realize some things about art or whatever we call art. If I could indulge myself, I've always had a tremendous respect for painters, visual artists, poets, I've always had an envy and respect for people that have the courage to put that much of their creativity in the singular objects. In things like a powerful poem holy fuck up, for painting what punch me in the fucking face. Do it, but sometimes I don't always understand what it is I'm looking at or why I'm looking at it or what it represents, and I had of a mind blowing moment looking at sarris paintings because They don't happen unless she manifest them. They are not out of the great collective unconscious or the the strange abstract zone of simplicity beyond things, we understand beyond things that we attach meaning to beyond ways of speaking. They are poor
out of the universe it onto the canvas by creative spirit that no one there done. That is the true gift of a painter. It's like I'm done in the end. When I was working at it might be like how do you know when you're done, because work added? It's finished right, What is it really mean? There's such specially with abstract stuff, which is tricky for people to get or some people just prefer not to, but what you are seeing as you are looking into a portal beyond all understanding, and if it is done properly and with balance and with courage, you are seeing something yell at once present and modern and primal at the same. I am, and it's sort of it's sort of mind, blowing it sort of mind blowing that the the risk taking that is involved with weedy. You started take a lot of stuff
granted. When you look at a painting, you can easily walk by a painting, even the great masterpieces, and sometimes I get a little cynical. Sometimes a girl will defensive, and sometimes I I think, there's no hope in that nothing. Fucking matters and it's easy for me to go like what's the point. What's the point of art, what's the point of painting, what is it really doing? How's it moving us forward. It's not that that's not it's job! If it could gesture your blow a couple minds and move through the world that it moved through and the respect it deserves. It does move the dialogue forward. It does open a portal into the great unknown. It does bring something into the world that did not exist before solely for the fact of a creative expression, and we can't fuckin lose that man and I also got the opportunity to hang out with one of a favorite artists to mine, the idea Sarah new I went to the dinner after the opening and- and I hung out with the with fred thomas Sally, who is this amazing artist
I saw for the first time like back in the nineties. He does these amazing sort of color like paintings, but he uses like marijuana weeds and he uses of whose energetic drugs in their many coat. then with a resident, and he creates abstract sort of hallucinatory paintings using altar of elements of thing and collage and actual pills to hang out with him for an hour. Nevertheless, I would happen and we had some pretty deep talks about the nicotine delivery systems empower pop and that's what you talk about when you got time on your hands and you do in the big work, what do you got going? Well, he happens to be a nicotine gum guy on the nicotine lozenge guy he kinda wanna makes the jump he wants to make the jump never tried to Austin. So I gave the guy that uses in this painting, half nicotine lozenge. I think I might just changed its life. That said boy, I'm sort of honour. If the terror that may or may not make sense I'll finish it up momentarily? So you know what I did that I didn't know. I could do because I'm sort of old manning a bit, as I said,
is I got Hb ago, because I got h b, o and time warner cable again, these are not paid plugs. It's just my life and I didn't know I could just get h b. O go know what I've been doing instead of like putting my together and doing a orton readings and warning things expanding my mind. Is I'm watching the sopranos from episode one? You know like a fuckin miss it god dammit you remember when the soprano IRAN in like you'd, look forward to sunday, because you didn't have hbo go and there is no other way to watch it in the EU. that sunday there be a new sopranos and if there was in it sad fuckin sunday and watching him all his fucking great so a hotel room watching this progress when we should be doing other stuff, but what's better than the sopranos, it's so nice to have people in my head again, because they've already in used into my dreams to amazing what an amazing thing that that the Sopranos changed. Everything and I need to plug the sopranos, but before I forget,
so spectacular exhibit at the new museum in new york. I guess I'm gonna be our guy going to play guy for awhile. But now I guess I'm going to be our guy for a second, because the new museum has is some. She has all these obsessive collections of creative people that infused all sorts of purpose in their creativity that they're what that that what they were doing served a specific purpose. in terms of their wife and keeping it together, awarding off spirits. There's almost a mystical element. It's a curated exhibition of specific people that did odd. You know artistic things and and sort of coveted them in in series, or you know, in papers, or you know, in collections of photographs, it's pretty fascinating, but on the top floor, there's a series of paintings by a woman named hilma af klint to swedish woman and Sarah is a huge fan of this woman. I of course had never heard of her and the
her these mystical abstracts. Apparently this woman was a realist painter and she secretly way ahead of the game like in the early nineties. Hundreds was doing these abstracts at were sort of attempts at. bringing together a mystical system that her and a few other people were working on, putting together a mystical system to explain the great primal forces of the universe in a very simple think us break it right down man there's the thing is: if you move the scream of garbage aside and just look at the light, you'd look in a frequency shit colors cohesion through through just mystical and some still unknown, mysterious forces that remain to unexplored, by science and only theorized that that these forces they propellers. and everything we know and don't know through time and through universes and through these portals. As I said before, you cap in and the truth is but, and it makes everything in the moment that you lock into that canvas or in the moment that you walk into that palm or that you are
into that portal that has been yo offer to you by an artist. It suspends and just you devastates every element of our trivial petty garbage, phil, distracting dumb lives and their you look at the simple truths, simple truths and one of those paintings. There's a helix structure. Fifty years before, dna was even discovered. Why? Because that woman was tapped in to the abstractions that define those mystical forces that move us through all life all space right, that's what you get did that just exhausted
Could you still walk by a nazi? That absolutely? Is it really that simple yeah, if you strip it all away- and you just deal with those basics that said sometimes it's nice just to plow through a pint of ice cream and a kitkat and watch the sopranos on a computer in a hotel room were probably bad. Things happened all right, that's ok! You can't spend all your time in the abstract. So right now, let's go to my conversation with the lovely ron. Parliament. This conversation definitely has an hour to it and we definitely get to something. So this me iran perlman? As I said, you can watch it show on amazon hand of god season two is coming soon and you can get his book easy street. The hard way that's out on paper act now and you can listen to me and ron perlman right now.
When these fuckin shows dude were like you know. We live in a world now where people tell me You gotta see this show and unlike what's what's it on, would even know what its on when they met when they too, May we will we ve overloaded, we fucked up a good thing than when I dont idea, and one thing anyone from the golden television to like. Please stop Is I don't even know what it is? It's the golden age of of chaos and cluster fuck of like with it loosens, employing of people who have no reason to have no right to be employed wide and say more going with them. isn't it isn't? This is. How is your show? Well, I like the figures, but then again. I think that, if everything when I was on your joy photos marcia it wise you shy man, I mean you, I owe my years ago. What is this the god business. It's this matter irritated him. It's ok, it's not hand to god its hand of right
it's actually down pitiable. Ok, great! a man it's so and so dense. Would you like to dance There is very, very it's very dense. It's it's very complex, yeah There is no way to describe it. I mean I could. how long we got voice you need your early. Ok then I could I could imam an hour early and you are you the lead in this, shall I am number one on the course sheet. You're number one. I calls you, but it's a vague vague is, like my version of marin. Ok except you're, not wrong ron, but I'm cornell her her now hair. I am a judge of of of of some concept. and see our every street or both Hard in town is named after either my grandfather on my great grandfather down on that guy sandwich sent a california the average annual town yeah sort of noise. galifron right too.
Dr an hour after hour from San friend right, And when you meet me beginning of of over a little for it. I am starting in broad daylight in a fountain, so draw a judge, what problems in a fountain and I'm speaking in tongues and I'm taken in turns out. I've been missing for three days, Annick episode, and then it turns out that we find it that my son is lying on life support having shot himself in the head, because he had a watch, his wife get raped for an hour, and, as is the opening, episode were given to believe that he's he's he's in a position where being we're being advised to pull the plug right. So suddenly, this man is the first episode is the first step is to this. This is like old news
Well, I'm just I'm just helping you to this because you know you're setting it up. You don't own a tv, obviously our tv. I don't have the time ron. I dunno, where people find the fucking time. I don't listen. I don't even watch my show. Yes, I'm watching my show for the first time and I'm finally with like I'm three seasons I watch my shell for one reason or another is good those we I, like it you'll feel like a goodman or that sweetie you know I I he caught me on a good season, a guy. This is the fourth one in I figured it out. It was figured Yeah, I figured man I I didn't. I didn't even break a sweat and, and I'm a sweater I go through boxes of tissues. We had some good scenes, some nice stuff, you me and MC gainey, MC gainey, acting way out of character. I loved the conceit of who It was. We were near sweet really really log into a very, very you did all my. for me that you, as the writer which which play This may know in I and
I have to do anything except you know, as they say, occupy yeah. Is that what they say I dunno. I just said I like it, but I'll just be be present on throwing shit. What do I know so? What's that now like getting back to, I appreciate the you know talking about my show, but this judge is in trouble. The judge. for the first time in his life, from knowing nothing but winning because he's you know he's there. This guy and on a personal level. He takes his head. He is the most powerful guy down. He lives in the big house shining house the hell he's got single mother fucker in town in his in his hip pocket. Yet he does a lot of people favors and he fucks up a lot of people, and is he a corrupt guy He has. He has the ability to be. He has a wife. He has a mistress. Ok, he's living, is low in the american dream right in with or without with all its like. You know me up while the idea, the accessories, the fringes yep benefit
and here is a soul. It turns out where he was in the three days he was missing before turns up naked speaking in tongues. Is he he he just kind of? on a straw and ended up in this church and got saved. I found god and I felt like I I almost felt like I could have been saved two days ago- really I'm through it I'm okay now, but I realized what I understood for some reason for the first first time in my life, the idea of sin and that and the pain of being flawed and why Jesus could work for some people. I may I I I wasn't looking for Jesus, but I understood it because I don't even know why. I I'm not even sure what I was thinking about. What was there a trigger no way? I I I'm starting I'm trying to figure out how to structure some stand up Oh, that's trigger enough anyone whose emigrated to play you know the improv right, you're, the guy
store knows. That's that's plenty, but I'm sure your planet right, one sort of fast, nay with the idea of sin, is not being like. There is never any. There was never any the idea was only designed. and and constructed to to for people to judge themselves against not to be sinless, but for people to accept sin and and that yeah that's something that that happens. You just want to try and keep it in check and then, when it's not in check, you have to, you have to look for the really for the salvation or the the corrective now are you? Are you one of these guys that believe that all of this stuff that we find in the at the root of of Civilization, meaning the bible, we act. Similarly, no one and then and the notion of of the dogma that come, will arise religion and in all of the bells and whistles that that's an invention, so that
and could figure out a way to behave properly, to forgive himself out of a forgive himself. I think that day I'd, it's probably two tiered there. It was a way for the people that ran the religion to keep people in check yet somehow and also a way to take contain a certain amount of power. Nothing was ever done in earnest. I think that people have to believe something bigger than themselves to explain the horror day to day life and catastrophe? I dunno if it was to forgive themselves, christianity seems to have something to do with that. The Jews are not great at that that I that I can really see. I'm never going to forgive myself for one for just being alive, just for whatever happy this morning's the right of every time. I go in the refrigerator rights, another reason to life to its another. Just you know four into self hatred right, wind, I think, but gum dump. I'm going with some of them are now day and indicate what I was saying about. The same thing is just say what I think about those things is that there was
clearly the seven dead. We are pretty specific on how human beings can really get themselves fucked up. So you know that the that's good luck, You know what I mean foods in their these guys we're good right. It was solid and unjust idea that term? That is this? This end if he went through all the pain possible for everybody to sort of use as a barometer for their own pain. I got it, I'm not! I'm not I'm not saying I'm I'm looking for it. I you know, I'm completely happy in my recurring pattern of self to hate, defeating and self hatred with a weird spans of manic, excite, that I think are actual change, and then your month, waiter, MIKE, I guess I was just a good week. You who I mean too much. This is known as godaddy, catering and yeah you come over here. No, this is what I was talking about said catering with a doughnut. In my hand, are you kidding me with a couple of teamsters?
sorry to repeat the conversation, no I'm I'm I'm starting to get it now. For me, it's like people say run. You know you need to you need to fucking smell. The rose is crammed, come down and you're so you're, so on edge you're. So angry, You know what is there to be so angry about, and I said what that anger I'd be working macy's. I now do thou nodded. About how we can be happy. You work constantly and you know I was like I'm going to talk to ron perlman. Let's take a look at some of the shit he's done. It's like. Oh he's done everything, there's nine hundred movies, there's fifty fucking tv shows you are constantly am right now, whoa whoa, are you shooting, while I'm talking to you, I have my phone under the table and I'm writing a script. just take a minute ron smell the roses. Are you afraid of silence? Are you afraid of sitting with the silence wrong
no not really had. No. I am really good at that. No line on the couch area of phenomenal real for now my already find the time to do that. I find the time find the time and and and and it's like the the work. A holocaust aspect has. Everything is the only the only fucking good thing about getting older here is, that is the perspective. Is right. Is that start thinking? I tell you mean, like an and also you do start understood- I think that some of the things that you would have thought were completely on excusable about yourself and unfair. Well about yourself on the very things that make you who you are that give you the you know your fingerprint yet because there's only one of everybody and that and that, if you are lucky enough to get to the point where you feel.
I'm fine! I'm living the dream, because I I have gotten appointed trimly, truly have got their bombs. I am the happiest mother fucker you ve ever met you great, that you'd take the idea. You alone, I mean every single thing that's happening is is all stuff that are used to dream about yet, and it's all it's all just my reality sets its part of my mind. Daily occurrence when any about you up a little that or have any he you, you appreciate, I loved good. I love it's a good thing. I know I love and it's scary, because you know I'm wired to like you know, feel guilty about shit Y, where that hat let's go back while I wasn't looking back now. I don't. I don't really think I didn't want to live down or anything like that. You know, and I didn't get analyzed, but but no but where's that come from a man's gotta come from somewhere. If it drove you for that long, he wrote a book, it's gotta be in the book. It's you didn't read the fucking book,
What for me, I know you're busy. It's not that I'm busy. I figure, like you, didn't, tell me a story. The problem with reading thoroughly. When I have a guest, isn't I led the you know, then I know what the answers are. Well, let me tell you then, or so in chapter one I like, like the cover your look mean and angry and you're smoking a cigar are compelled by it read cover it's a great covered draco and it was a pseudo, is doing for the cover of cigar aficionados here and we we we, we borrowed one of the pictures that came out of it shoot cause. It's me with a cigar my hand, obviously, as for a fuckin cigar magazine and we use, is a placeholder for my cover of my book. Yes, Malcolm no Moreno smuggle cause. We had these conversations onset that we were doing my shit and I gave them up. I had one yesterday yeah, no, I I can smoke them, but I, but I I had to stop because I was using them and various variously was aiming are constantly not in the gonna, where nine of like you can stop
I was inhaling all day every every puff and I was jane smoking, and so you got it. You got a bug. Oh, I was I could first thing the motive guy first thing in the morning and the last thing at night was a big pull off a cigar. I got fucking nicotine lozenge. Mouth now right now I got away. I'm clean, I'm sober and I I have gone beyond that. I can now actually smoke a cigar and a scene in a movie and not get a jones, oh yeah, to start up again, do you do anything else? Do you say, do you drink or do only socially? No, no we'd know we know not even socially. No, no, no pills, no wine, you know crestor sixty six shared know have have a food. That's my thing: that's the one! That's my! If there was an aid for food I'd be a habit getting they? Have it right away? Yeah I have like. I have food issues too. Where'd you get yours. Laura middle class, jewish right
eat something darling you're, not even enough- they were always worried about you write about you, You weren't eating and I was ever strike back in a back in the day was probably like here have played a kiss key. Have some fucking kasza varnish you give financed, may actually go straight in their nails from vienna demanded gotta, be that's, got to be the only place it has it stuff. Burma's would lagging growing areas has it. But when I see it like it's, it's a rare treat in its debts tasty like who's he for it to be sitting there, how long you been sitting there? Fuckin cannot engage lucifer iced right there. just go. Moves dared. Do you yeah? I still feel guy. The good news about cancers in there now is that they should still move. It's only guys, like you second generation immigrant, you guys who thou don t, do your pay its age you're not around. I have a house account at maidan else. So when I was a young kid, my dad, my biggest my dad's biggest year was twelve thousand dollars. That was the biggest area,
and I mean we were like you know we were. We were like burn sanderson training socialist left wing and. Every once in a while on a sunday when my dad was villain flush yet is very rarely he would bring home the stuff called shepherd salmon. Reassured them. That's not the smoked ones I get the fresh biscuits, I'm alive carefully moped right salmon, behold gilbert salmon. They used to have all these great, that's what they call them appetising store actual york city, like adolescent lesson, dies european and like like say bar yet- and this is where you got that community and shit, but he would bring home for a family of four a strip that was basically a quarter of a pound with eight bagels institute to each see it any spread the shit out so thinly with cream cheese right well, I like
I like my with butter bad, but but but my promise to myself why? If I ever, if I ever make a living the first thing I'm gonna do is by a piece of of cupboard salmon bigger than a quarter of a pound and put as much on a fuckin bagel, as I fucking can till I until I can get my mouth yeah. So what do I get? My first shown in the eighties beating the beast shasta, making some money for the first time storm. I some money, I call up neat nails cause, I'm here in hollywood, and I say what data you get your fish delivery because it comes from Zobacz their fish. Does it yeah? It comes from the same place. They burse comes from and they say it comes in thursday they ship it all the way cross country is shepherd this ship, I didn't know the flight, and so I show up around three thirty on a thursday there's, nobody in the restaurant and AL who of native rouse who's passed away now for at least fifteen twenty years he's its cash register
between luncheon denisov dinner, nobody in the fuckin restaurant I go in there- I order a pound and a half a cube of salmon. I guess and chopped liver. I get some bagels. I get some pickles and stuff like this, and I said I said by the way, and I would like to open a house account and from and I'm at the counter. So Allah is like twenty feet away at the ash register, and I hear I'll- say no, no, no, our chance we can do it? They can do it. as accounts sally I probably know fella again the paper work is charging me. It's killing me! No! No has again, I said: ok, ok, ok, no, proper care here. He's look now
you look like a nice fellow. I did notice it's good, it's good else good. So anyway, I get about eighty six dollars worth of stuff yeah and you take the bill and the bag, and you walk over to the the counter where I was sitting and you put, he puts the bill on the spindle and he takes the hundred dollar bill and he gives me the change and I start to walk out and I'm halfway to my car and I realize I have two twenties, a ten, a five three ones and some change too much change. on a on a six dollar bill and I've, given him one hundred air, so I walked back in the money's still in my hand, and then I set out what's wrong with this picture and he looks at the change and then he pulls my bill off to spend Lou looks at the bill.
He looks back of a change and he goes give this guy has a chance. The first honest jew I met in forty years, so I still have a house account and you go there often. I do I liked that place. No, I mean I look. I grew up kind, it is it's good gamma ray of emu, but like it's like it's a very specific thing that define comfort in their food. You gotta have in your past somewhere. Oh of course, I am eager, like I'm saying you grew up in the real shit. When I was a kid there was. There was a delhi on almost we blight in there and on every second or third block. There was a really good deli. Now I mean they're, not there anymore, it's only because the taste for that stuff is so specific. You know it was. It was the cold then you're. Now it's like a special thing and you got if, if your grandparents do Eichmann, if my her father. Had your driven me into this, from bayonne, so he could pick up tongue at catches,
in built that into my brain or my grim I didn't make multiple soup and brisket I wouldn't know. I would note my generation is one right after you and we were the first ones to go. I don't eat that shit yeah, but where'd. You grow up in new york, washington heights, and what is that is that brooklyn, no bronx, it's upper manhattan, it's right near the bronx. It's upstate manhattan. Oh almost, a bronx right washington heights is so named because it's the highest point in manhattan. It's where the george, washington, bridges right. Okay and george washington ergo washington heights yeah. She stood up there and and watched the haitians as they as they made their way up. New york near and a decisive battle was fought because he was able to watch the march up because he was perched at this highest point right. so named washington, glorious history, whether he rather put the george washington bridge, which I think they're renaming the chris christie pixel. my kids in family
mean siblings, and here I had a brother It has to weigh very young. He was already eight years old, jenny castro age as musician. I really will happen. I struggled a long time with manic. Depression. Ah found was found a dead right and nada nada, a pretty stores. He got down your family, the depression, I guess so near I mean I mean. If you read the fuckin book you don't Why you gotta say like em? Why can't I just how? Why can we have a conversation about your life is? Why is why? Because I had my? U go my youtube, but you know what the only time I read books is when I'm nervous about talking to the person. I don't think that's a great thing to say. I appreciate that it's a very great compliment, but here's. Why is why it's important I'm going to read it a bunch? Here's why it's important and I'll tell you why it's important- and you know you want to come back another day- I'm not a! I mean. Does that mean I gotta leave now maybe
what do you get it now? I got more shit, I got more like I love it. I know you see actually, because you didn't read the book now, I'm gonna tell you the whole. That's exactly the point that conversation, but the thing is: is that, like the The reason I'm here the eyes numb here is because of a guy named phil starts I'll, get a therapist. I love they'll start actually doing. Is your angels? Does I worked for years and years and years I haven't spoken. Did he fix your brain? He fixed me: I'm a graduate when I go to him now, it's usually maybe twice a year and mostly up it's it's mostly every once in a while. You still got a territory where you really have never been before and don't know quite had a manoeuvre away around really within yourself who in the world now then
itself, but yeah it it and applying how to handle some in how to handle cause of the thing that was brilliant about stutz and and and why you, the the interview you did with him on the show which I guess was inspired by hank is Eric. Book a book that he rode called the to lag, is area brought him up and didn't impressed I know him and then ah the woman who was the publisher of my book, published Phil's book, sent it to me and I said of course phil. Doesn't he doesn't he doesn't? you know there's no like so you know what and when you mother did estonia like the car you and I were about to have about. Why are you the way? I do I'm sure that as a fucking reason, I'm sure that there was yet another reason. I'm sure that their. Why do disservice, but he no there is nobody, but why? What good does it? Do I tell you why I you want to go back to that moment where you realize that
that all the other shit you couldn't get in this life, and with three years old, you could finally get from a from a piece of white, wonder bread with mayonnaise on it. That was good. Does that do yes, a very touching image I will ever think that'd. Be a great resource creatively that moment when you feel that You could be right, but I'm going leave the door open for four for you to be partially right. Why just an experience yesterday that that speaks differently to this. You know that I had a realization us around this around food My mother was the opposite. She was not eat her. She was an purse, oh so what I was my grew up with you know, I you know you're unlovable, if your fat, you know, if you put on weight I mean like, oh so like I. body image issues from the gekko. with my mom was so afraid of fat that she she couldn't handle in herself, and my entire
It was based on denying me for now is a chubby kid. So, like she literally to me recently. I don't think I could love you if you were fact that in the last decade, but what I'm he was I I went back yesterday to the moment. That's a giveaway by the way. What that she would say something like that. That did that's a good chance. She she just fundamentally can't No, no. No. She said that too. She said that waken, passing sort of like a like jokingly, thanksgiving because you know mark when you were a baby. I just don't know how to love. You know my holy shit. There is the missing piece, but but the moment The moment yesterday, where I realized that that she was incapable of it, because she was so. In her own self. The powerful moment like We cannot become let them off the hook, your cognitive it's fine? Yet you are not a live your life, but the more you can actually let go of some share to feel the grief for the sadness and that's not,
think well I'll. Tell you something here. I was about to say that the genius of study as that and he actually the the name of his book, the tool yeah. The the genius of his therapy- is that in in in the fifty five minutes of or fifty minutes that you're but you're in session with him yeah, whatever I ever brought in in fifty minutes, I was beyond it and simply because there was no exercise in going backwards and trying to deep deconstruct. something in and that so that you deconstruct, as he can build up on it again, which his wife classical therapy usually take. years and years and years work necessary at his thing was: ok. Here's here's your problem, you do this this in this year, close your eyes can I give you an exercise and then maybe gives, second one, maybe even a third one, depending on how how profoundly deep the shit
What can you go? I just not only did I get past it, I have wipe the slate clean and I'm fucking empowered, now yeah and that's that's an amazing conceit until you get to the next one right. But if you get to all of the triggers yeah and you get enough tools to sort of redirect you misinformation year, which is coming from the short circuiting our inability to come up with something on, and you get a tool that immediately poorly redirect it and manages it anyway were something that was suicidal and negative and dark yet also all of a sudden becomes celebratory and yet beautiful. Yet so he has his thing which, which this will tie into everything we're talking about called the shadow year, which is one of his tools, and this was the hardest one for me to get to because I have such an aversion to wanting to go back to the original sin, but the ship.
Oh, is that kid with the peace, a white, bread and mayonnaise on it, eating it he didn't want anybody to see and because it was so like in the event that the everything that you have that you find as at the root of all of yourself. The aim is the shadow that shadow guy you and a year. You know if you, if you do this therapy diligently, you summoned the shadow summoning the shadow took me fucking years, because our resistance to it, but finding that kid, finding my little kid there was likes so in need of of beings, said hey, you know it's! It's good, you're, good man! You gotta check this out. You know, and it came from ok you identify it and then you can, then you treated as if it's your own child and you're going to give it up.
Additional love and support to the point where you make it feel beautiful and now you are in control of the kid, because your taking care of it in your and you're telling it- and you are also at peace with the fact that that very thing that used to cause you all this discomfort and and self loathing and lack of esteem. Everything is the very thing that makes you fucking beautiful right. That's you know, that's that yet overcoming shame. Yet nobody, but still sounds like I'm some level simple exercise similar access. I mean I just as you out of date, you can do it and after that you can repeat, the real trick becomes. If you're used to be yeah and aggravated compulsive, yeah, you know yes, cycling! Guy, like you view, if that's your baseline, you know aggravated, There is a certain comfort in that yeah, it may not seem comfortable one year in it, but that's home. Do you show when
leave home you're like hey, I feel pretty good fact: tat. Fire death wrote. So that's it that's a tricky thing. That's a probably right, but but that is by I mean it's different than what you're saying, because when we open the conversation with, was that you, who am I without the anger, wrote right? So no, I won't give up the anger right I'll, never give up the anger never give up any lashes indignation. I will cause I'm totally convinced that that's where all of my genius come true, all of it, but we are also happy, though, so, that we get a lot of murdering incredibly happy and the anger, which is always right right read it. I know me do right personally, I mean right next to me right, but somewhere is that how was the? How was that like? You ve done your shit, you're good the anger is right here like I could trigger it. I don't know, but it gets not to be angry. But now I get negative world myself, I'm living in me I mean,
it's gonna be a news junkie. Now I'm having a look at this shit yeah, but throughout the world that you're living in, is you like away on the couch you're? working all the time people know you you're on my shit school. I you know market fine by that, then I am talking about I'm talking about I'm talking about I'm talking about. You know You know you're not only does this. This is a civic awareness, world the right level that you now is this and to avoid the his child hunger. I not fire and people you know being profile than, and you know and an eye enough. So you grew up with a social awareness. I gave you didn't bring up your father, youth with them, they joy socialists, None on my dad was an agnostic. My dad had, political and active disdain for religion. Regular way you do was a fundamentally a musician stopped being a musician before I was born because he decided that he needed to be rich.
Possible now that he was a and and started to go door to door fixing people's televisions broken televisions back in the day when people had pictures. Who was in the air and tubes, and so there is that our on call tv were merrily than on call tv repair. Dude he charged three dollars. City regret: the house call not being a musician anymore. He never seem to He we had a piano in the house. He told himself out of play trumpet and we would come home from these. These brac bit back breaking arduous days near and and then play how he had an hour and a half is aiming at no joy before dinner, awe and by the time we sat down at dinner, he was it was like the savage beasts who had been soothed while sway, He used there is passion, do as a meditative, beautiful hobby, He seemed to have an amazing balance. That's great
seeing balance without without without any of the self obsessed, bittern lap trap that guys of our generation are fucking going through and I feel like there was so much less self indulgence, indulgence or indeed on those guys, the aim of a generation before me that feed. I know that's a couplet generate here for you, but you know when you use your guys like broke talk about the greatest generation. You know the world war. Two guys did. Was you dad in the war? He was in the army, he didn't, he didn't. Never. He who has never combat he was. It was in the army. Language were to yet and his you, his experience was, was shaped by being a depression it'd be number one up, and somebody who and the you know sacrificing whatever plans you had in order to go serve your country was was was not even something you thought
is about right and then getting on with it afterwards, not sitting around indulging in, like the horrors that I've seen rana right I know, a lot of guys who who actually did serve and who somehow your generation nor his little slightly older I got to be very close with charlie turning who was a great act, your most, but he was one of the most decorated soldiers in the history of this country, who turned into an actor. He charles darning was landed on omaha beach really had didn't know took out. He took out some lost thirty, eight gus his greatest friends around them. Some like that any EF he took out a machine gun nest and he carried twelve people to safety, and you know on his back and and then he turned into this fucking beautiful, bright song and dance guy who gray act. Hoo, hoo, hoo hoo spread
current everybody's lives for decades and decades, and right before I got to work with him a lot, but the last time I work with them. He would just suddenly sit there in the chair waiting for them to light a shot and he would just break into tears and he was trying to finally purge this stuff that he held in for all those years near because the efforts, as you ever say I heard you were on burma- be he would change the subject and then right before he died. I've seen this without a veterans he he needed to get it all out, and I couldn't stop him we're talking about. Oh really, you couldn't stop them from talking about how the hurry he never slept more than two hours a night and he his wife would have to hold them in his arms while he sobbed because of what he saw at normandy, so they had ptsd, but
wasn't a thing these war were to lead an wasn't levelled at what lies a thing. It was a thing, but it was, but somehow was what I don't. I don't I'm I'm I'm obsessed with this mark. I just have to figure out what it is about these newest latest wars that we have guys. You know twenty three a day. Almost one an hour? You know Gillan and sailing to the point where the weather, whatever it was. One of the things that's gone is the that not a second thought about serving your country, that's a choice and that it's an occupation, and some of these guys are coming from. You know relatively desperate situation, the war, it does not necessarily have public support any or even have anything to do with you know the entire pretty of america. A lot of time So I go out. These guys are going in its and ill defined agenda
So here are there not coming home. You know with the decorated heroes with the with the country, support and you know if it wasn't, for you guys, we'd all be in trouble, kind of thing and then a phone. Guys and uniforms there there but their walk in the very people who are holding a baby's as shield that started with the unknown that stuff that whole tone that's what it all that's what it all turn real dark, yeah, That's one war was no longer this. This thing that you, a subsidy gallantry in nobility and all those other kind of abstract words, but those were the words that were associated with yet with our efforts to try to protect our liberty, we must have been of age. For vietnam. Now I was and what happened. I basically, I didn't see any logic in
we're engagement in vietnam and I didn't see any any any anything noble about it. Were you an actor at that point already know? I was just getting out of college and the it's the one little lottery that I've. I that I won, because the that I became eligible as one they, they went from us a straight draft to a lotta redraft where they would draw birthday. and then, if you were in the end, if you in the top say two hundred fifty you a fucking going. If in the bottom, one sixty five or one thirty five. What was left of birthdays? You, probably weren't gonna, get called yet I got none before I want. And we had a thing. I won't go into great detail, but you know we were happy and second turning it into a real out running on turning out. Where were you well lemon college in the bronx
as long as everybody, smoking does a good job in acid everybody's. Listening to you now to the beatles gonna fuckin ashram vs It- and you know Yet I transcendental my had a great but I was discovering theater, but I was also kind of politically aware- and I was part of the sixties thing where your active yeah there was there- was there- was a kind of everything seemed to two areas. seem to be even even my environment. Inferior see was some into weaves with activism times that were a change. Yet you know that was a fear, was very expand. Their experiments, everybody we judge julian backs yet well. Now Happening and we were studying it, we were trying to figure out where that that work that didn't happen to be my cup of tea, eternal I was more inclined to more classic more traditional that type things, but I was trying every
and what we first ventures in the theater at that time must be pretty wild shit, known because most my fear of exposure was through school, now, cattle, whatever the sky was doing I was I was in high school plays cowards plays, got seven thousand dollars worth the parking tickets. I go and lemon college in the bronx and then decided to go to grad school in minnesota because I figure the cops would never look from it. And I I really did when really what graduate program where university of minnesota too and acting doing an m F, a a masters of fine arts for acting yeah, which is a good program. It was great program, it was Minnesota. Minneapolis St Paul is great. I love highly cultured Yup region, even and her very much so yeah. The Guthrie theater was there and I want to show you the walker art centre. Young people have a lot about this. many in the town there's a lot of
Was there a lot of sophisticated, collateral elaborate, let a corporate headquarters. So there were a lot of wives who had a lot of time on their hands, who had money and they shoved at all the arts, those museums a gallery area there were, but they were the theatres all over the place. Community. Theatres, all the place where there was no lack of someplace to go play your where someone do the other day. There you do all that you do the shakespeare, you do the dance you do that movement. He drew his sword fighting. We do. a clown workshop. Did you kindly had used to accuse me of doing anything for laugh? He says you break a fuckin leg. To get a laugh, wouldn't you attack, I ha. I was that are easy to anything. Will tone it down. That's funny, because audi or roser are little heavier than that. I started off. Doing stand up now. First thing I ever did in showbiz was stand where in the bronx for real for reals
did improper. Now I never get that far. I only did other peoples, I never evolve to the point where rowing and this I I basically mostly did George Carl exactly where stood. It off locally and then, wherever discotheque there was around, we would go your audition and they would say yeah. You could do a couple of nights here, very yeah huh. My last gig was on arthur avenue in the bronx or yet the restaurants her yet and we got heckled as we had a partner spencer schwartz was my part You are doing the comedy team and ron perlman spencer, Schwartz are on stage. We were stewart and perry air because it wasn't cool to be. You know your name. Towards european right
So anyway, we get heckled and we held back and all of a sudden. You know about forty guys made guys story started for the stage and we will We we else it last night that there was a back door. There was luckily a cab waiting. He asked I found there was a farewell to comedy and the only reason I went into legitimate acting is because you know, like the old John wayne, joke who's doing. You know, he's apparently doing julius caesar and in in in of some town in pennsylvania and and. Some woman is snoring in the front row and he turns to goes a lady. I didn't write this shit So that's why I wanted to let you so that I could say: hey you know of the play bombs. It's not my fault. Some fuckin jerk writer wrote this shit right, so
you start doing theatre in new york, I what what were you doing? I we do you, the la and that you are here Why would I go I? I grew up all all through new york, goat, high school start acting in high school act, all my way through college, two years of grad school, so there's eight years of of stage. Finish, grad, school and then say: ok, I gotta go back to new york. He can't keep running away from this start. Damn you feel like you were running away from it. I thought I'd I tried to run away from it as long as I could, because every every professional actor I knew had a horrific life. They were all living on spaghetti and you know in cold water flats, and you know struggling to to pay the bill or would you go to undergrad for was it for what? What did you think he I loved I know, but like did you have a plan b
another I on the other problem was there was never a plan b, rationally problem that has that's what he that yeah yeah. Eventually you gotta you gotta, you know maybe you're it out. You know, stand stand and deliver or you know, move move off, see move back to new york, back to new york, my, but he had a cat. Boutique in greenwich village worked for him he let me go whenever I had a play whenever I had not. What year are we talking? Seventy seventy three to eighty exciting place new york at that time. Her incredibly exciting place as like all broken, and it was. It was very much in transition yeah. You know because the sixties were giving way to something. No one quite knew what it was turned out. It was aids, yeah kind of I mean I had also bankruptcy yeah, it turn, that is, the other all these hippies turned into yuppies in, and you know whatever Never was we fuck you, you know. In writing. Ro resulting aghast just observed
he was was was just a big tank. I think so, what I theatre were you doing in the seventies Similarly classics, I really love. I really loved. I get very lucky because I met a professor at lemon college year who brought me through from from escalates to sam beckett and everything in between yeah, like the entire history of of of of the hour of full, on theatre guy, at the actual wasn't about movies, really you weren't artists but it was about. It was about the literature of fear, the art, the literature and yet not the art. Thou art came later. The literature of fear me like what the greeks,
started doing and then you know everything that that they died yet only to be replaced by something else. Then they died. But through every phase of history there has been theatrical literature yeah up until now. There's hardly anybody writing plays anymore cause. You can't make a living doing it. I just talked to a couple of guys: there's some good shit around the this in good should around, but but you now, arguably we're not living in an age where people like tennessee, Williams, eugene, O'Neill, samuel beckett, Samuel beckett, going to grass William in edward all be are all walking the earth. At the same time right I, when I was learning my value system, all those guys were not only walk in the earth, but they were Harold Pinta. They were, they were what people
had to aspire to had to look up to yet we don't live in a condition right now that supports that particular kind of, and my theory is it's not because of a tennessee, William, isn't being born every five minutes. It's just that he you know his ability to get to the marketplace. Has completely stultified astro, so he has to go, find a way to do something: to keep his lights and that usually means he's, gonna be working. It affects, or amazon or and thank god for those places, because right now, that's where all the great literature level and what I ve learned from talking to people that live through this in yourself included, is that it was a man more intimate business and eat in the sense of outlets and people who were truly gifted and in full on geniuses. That did the work. were celebrated more because because it at intimacy you now
all things broken open, there's a million different outwits there's there is the issue of of of corporate occupancy of the arts and very public support and a lot of ways and there's just thousands of people doing and they can do it on their own. But back then, if someone came up through the ranks and all the sun, there was a play in it to be reckoned with. It was reckoned with, it was just. All community, because there was an edifice into which it could plug into the up, and it was a thriving face that you know that it is also a small. You know it was like you. I think that the politics business in and inserted a competition was always there and there is even less opportunity. So the motherfuckers I threw had been fuckin geniuses, but that's true,
regeneration, yeah. I too am saying. However, what is not true of every generations was is, is what what's happening now is that the edifices have all been ripped away, including the record industry, like I have a kid who she recorded her first album of attend songs that she will and if she had done that literally two years earlier should have been signed there given the three million dollars, one million dollars to make the album Another million dollars to in her into a brand name in a third million dollars to send her out into the world on tour and by the time all those three things happened. If she was meant to be a star, she was gonna, be a star, and and and they had a revenue stream near broken up and now there's this there's no edifice. It's become so difficult to sort through because there's always been five layers of garbage before you get to before you get to stevie, wonder right, but somebody
in charge of sorting through that right now we all the do it and there was a place where somebody would be playing something. All of a sudden. I hear you're awful in my life and the holy shit, get him on the fuckin phone right and all of a sudden that world hasty wonder and were not just you and me: could I'm gonna catch him on you too right, but the fucking world has stevie wonder, ran he's filling stadiums all over the world, so doing the classics, you're in new york and I'm still do last yeah. But yeah amazing career, so I'm just trying to like you know how did what were wowed come to hollywood. What happened so you doing, you're, doing theatre, work. What was the break cause? It seems like you, are eating a lot of shit for a few years and yeah I mean I, I I I had a a sporadic moments of sublime on age. Throughout my whole, young life we're sporadic moments of of supply
illness I met a guy right after I got out of school named thomas organ and tom of morgan was known for hair Jesus Christ, superstar Lenny, he erected all those tenaya. I caught her eye caught him and in his waning days, but we made some noise, and so are you know, with the play that we did got a huge amount which way was called the emperor and the architect of Assyria of the architect, preserve Assyria was. It was a very, very angry expression. Mystic spanish play by gaining fernando are about, but we fuck and set the town on fire in new york at re review. What year was at seventy six sites exciting, and so from that I got an equity card from that I gotta for my first agent and everything la and then not
for three years and you're good to go. It's is it yeah and then nineteen, seventy nine and I get called in to to do this- audition were I'm supposed to try to act like in the end, a thought and saw cavalierly go, and I I treat the fuckin directive cause, he's french and he seemed like see: let's see what he was when he was wearing jeans that had that had that, had there were ironed, yeah yeah know see you follow the hey. Do iron eugene's? Not you have you have like a like in the in the john and his mother, fucker tat, creases right. Clean genes, my friend he held here. He was a frenchman. He had a sweater tight around it. Do you get the right attitude going at it? He had perfect hair her and he was french and and
during a fucking caveman movie, and I I I all I could think of was written mature in virginia mayo and in two thousand bc c e, where she's wearing a loincloth, a loincloth and- and I and I shadow the air, you know and he's he's perfectly shaved grey yet with great hair and so I cavalierly went through this whole or distant process and the day they flew me the london for the final audition. I find out that this frenchman when the economy award for black and white and colorful best foreign foam and that he was at serious mother, fucker air and on the last audition I finally got nervous, but I hadn't blown it. I didn't get so nervous that I blew it. They gave her the part. It was called quest for fire. My first movie twentieth century fox, big movie, huge budget air, the time for night.
maybe the academy award winning filmmaker do the movie. It's got anthony burgess, who wrote clock without our yeah. He's writing the big, the glossary. It's got the greatest anthropologist in the world he setting up the world for us, it's it's just teeming with class in, team thy radon john. It's got radon john, it's teeming with integrity at its teeming with its with serious, look anybody's ever taken at eighty thousand years ago. What that might have looked right and it's not plan. It's not fucking plan, and I would do the movie rave reviews to get a couple of nominations. Nothing happens for three years again again, years three, nothing. Nothing then that same dude, who did classifier, comes back and enhance me at this. Another fucking trippy jim
called the name of the rose. The quest I was like that was really. There is no english in that. Not was no. It was like you were like a silent film, but that's hard actually sound yeah. It was hard you had like he had to draw from all your resources, I'm telling you it was a sublime. I know artistic endeavor yeah, which was received in a beautiful way by, but there wasn't a commercial success right. None of the things I were doing were commercial successes, including the thing. at la mama, but the people who I cared about him. You know their opinion. They will go holy shit. This is some trippy shit yeah, and you know that was that that was that was, money from yet then three more years, and then he decides gonna. Do the name of the rose, which was like four two hundred weeks number best seller on the new york times vessel and yet on bare to walk echo and a lot of people to do the movie. And he gives me this role of the hunt back. We has almost as colorful as the one in notre dame right and it's sancho
reason it in and out like work, my how beautiful beautiful I mean you, you eat certain you. You know you, you have certain expectations of your of your true heroes. They don't have you not have them I hear ya guys from that generation of the only white guys who could ever, who could ever be in the category of heroes. For me, anyway, yeah you know the sean connery he was End of of all the guys were larger than life. He was the last bastion of that and when you meet a guy like that- and he doesn't disappoint that he's a real fucking oji he's a real like you didn't hear and suffer fools. He drinks hard. He plays hard you now he lives hard and he loves to laugh and sit there and have a great time, but when they say action he is like he's like Michelangelo you now, so that was thrilling throw it s. The name of the rose happens, have that will be received very, very beautiful by the poor,
Ass didn't make a lot of money, but it broke even like most of my shit and then beating the beast. That's, however, one nosy yeah goes for two and a half years, primetime, CBS the show finally ends the phone. it really doesn't ring for three fucking years. Why do you think that is ron? I don't know I just I just the nature of the business. I think that I think that I mean I you know. I think I, be a modest if I even tried to address that or or or or or answer that right? But I think it has something to do with the fact that none of those things were indicate indicative of of making me saleable ripe for sure none of those things were in the thick of the indicative of saying, oh, oh, this is the guy who is going to be doing this for the rest of us.
You know because each one of those what kind of one off and also you get cast as it not necessarily a heavy but a heavy presents. You have a certain intensity and look to you but none of them worse, sir, said o o. We get he'll, be the third he'll, be that it would be the best friend of the lead for the rest of his current right, though these act elephant right, you don't you Yeah. You see most people you go. Oh yeah he's going to be that guy. But did you want that? Well, I thought I did because it having the phone not ring for three years and always being on the verge of selling your house yeah, you know or or pulling your kids out of the fucking school. You know, that's not fun, scary, it's it's not fun just not fun. So what I really wanted was some sort of seat at the table and some sort of feeling that if everything wasn't always going to be complete feast or famine, especially after fifty like he did, have like fifty five sixty episodes of that thing of beauty and the beast. So you he banked or money yeah
just another again to travel, to write and united by my first house and then and then within the not wait for three years. So will you after I made my first downpayment and he had a wife and two kids that point as well, yeah, but the second kid got born the year they castle bits and pieces. never what kind of guy area and when that happens, the freak out a young yelling at your age, and I call for a study that was when he started, which I call I call my shrink. I say how do I do this and there were times when I really didn't have the resources where I was in total panic spill where I was like get written, throw everything overboard you now as the allies. Like I don't know, I never did, I think, about gettin out of business, because I see what you can do note, what am I going to do? First of all, what am I ever going to do that gives me? The thrill of this thing gives me that that sort of engages me in you know all my
cylinders are pumping when I'm doing it right, there's nothing that even cut ever came close to that, but you're still doing your parts in movies at that time, right here and there things that I would rather not have been in. You know things that I'm not proud of me out things that just work now, yet you know just just shit work and then I I met guillermo del toro and, and ah I've been steadily working ever since yeah he's. He actually was the one that changed. life, for I finally got momentum and it's it is Lenny. You credit him exactly like he's too guy credit him exactly he's. The fourth leg of the stool ah there were. There was ass stats, there's again in college arson, Anyone who taught me how to love literature their jack. I know who gave me
the fire and name of the rock and enemy the gate there and then there's still thorough, and you know that that there's lots any one of those people and in somebody's life. But this is that much of a game changer for your, where you're completely going in one direction and all of a sudden the whole direction changes are changing. Your whole perception, any one of them is, is a good thing to have in your in the arsenal of living life, but to have you know for people who who had that that much of an impact and continue to yet While I was now is that was when I realize wholly ship from the you know, you Whatever, whenever little moments of discomfort, you are very, very lucky, do yet and how to doubt where the he he directed the horrible he directed movie called Kronos rises- first vignette nineteen. And he too yeah three or something whenever it says there,
and that was when, after beating the beast, I was the first job I did in three years yet, but his coming out party was for real. This was the lack of a film maker that that the world was going to stand up and take notice to, and everybody realised from his first movie tiny little weird vampire movie here that he was really. I was gonna leave behind a body of work, how important body of work here Not only did we have a great working relationship, but we turned into great pals, and then he did the seven year battle with a studio and a half cause for five years. It was at one studio and he kept saying ron perlman. They kept saying nick cage if Sandra from the kept saying the rocky kept saying it was Hellboy and it took him seven years, but he finally won me the role and got the picture made. An
no one can see it. Is anybody ass yet, but I mean that that was like. I don't know. I've never seen anything quite like that before where somebody could have made a move, twenty times over near he could have made his movie twenty times or but just by god, yeah. Alright, I I this is a losing battle. I, and even I was santa, take it dude you're, not gonna you're not going to get the movie made this way, yeah gimme small park. You know in la movie and f b I have some air and that he did that. So that was a game changer than Hellboy two and then sons of anarchy everything sorta started. One thing started leading into another, which is what I mean by momentum in your in your forties. Now, I'm in my fifties at that
I'm in my fifty. So she has been a way things: you're, not proud of taking whatever you can to can disdain. The game forties was that the fifties is one. The momentum started. Life began in any too in a strange way. Fifties with my most phenomenal decorate, thank god and the sixties are so better. So for not come I'm a gumboot boy. So I it's it's amazing cause he's like a sons of anarchy was huge gun. Nice tight following were in parking, lots shoot my show. People were coming up to you with stuff to sign dolls through lunch boxes. I don't know what the fuck was. People love that show like you locked into something that even in this media landscape, where the eta this is our limited, where each No one thing you can find. That is especially, will show like that with the personality like yours in is that
very loyal fuckin following hell boys. The same way, there is a certain group of people that love that fuckin movie they're, probably see once a year right, right, yeah and they love you. No, no, no, no, the the the fans or even beauty and the beast. The the the fans were were rabid. They were small number, but they were rabbit. That's the way it works and it's probably better for you that you weren't some sort of the major movie star that had a five year window and then became sort of vodka like what was it like. Would brando at the point you work with those? That's that's something you know we're either going to have to do another podcast or you're going to have to read chapters twenty. Now you can tell me the story like a fucking, jew, twenty and twenty one well brando was a mean I I don't even know where to begin I mean you know, of of all the actors love brando of all the actors who are obsessed with of all the actors who who try.
emulate him and and and figure out, covert ways of of of or merging him without being caught. No one is bigger than nobody it has more revere for that motherfucker than than there are there Is that a kind of tied with me, but no one has more So when I heard that used in this film and that then that there were- and there was tailor made because it was the dial adopt were also everybody in the film had to beat where this transformational make ups, and that was my thing. That's my wheel house I had already done. Classifier transmission will make up, namely the rose. so. I was known and an beating the beast So I was known as this guy who like to work behind rubber and had the patience to it's a hour and and and that I dug it, and then there was no complaining that was like in a mere and so was a shoe in for this next mall in random movie, which I never imagined.
Have you ever met him? I never met him, oh my god, so the richest stem there's a documentary called island of lost souls. I think my richest stanley was was the genius he was it was. It was kind of a low budget, vonder kintyre, who had directed a couple, a really cool edgy low budget stylish movies, a new line here. new line with his newly formed little notoriety he was kind of up. He was a kind of an egghead yeah. He could be. He stumbled when he spoken. He was very but very brilliant guy, but not a not not a battler. Like a real intellect, two here and he's the direct he goes to new line, and he he pitches the the notion of doing island of doctor Moreau and they say well. This is fascinating. It's time that we do this because vivisection is suddenly now become
whereas h g wells wrote about this in eighteen. Ninety, five right now: it's actually cloning is actually on the on the radar. So yeah can you get somebody and he goes to brando and brando says I will I will I: will he watches movies and he signs on hire everybody stan winston for the makeup. The higher me, the higher you know, lotta lot of motherfuckers all over the place go to far north queensland, australia to start shooting and on the fourth day they fired richard stanley. Why? Because, on the fourth day, he was four days behind through a series of happened stances that most of which were not his fault, but yet he got he. He got the rug pulled out under him by some very crafty, shady motherfuckers mia, who did not appreciate him wielding power on a big thing: He was not ready yet right.
I was still in l a I was meant to go out on the next plane, but I said hold on. We may not be doing the movie Then I heard rumours that they're not gonna do the movie unless they can find a directive that brando approves of than I- yet it is I'm starting to get emails from from directive. Friends of mine. Like I gotta meeting with mall, in which they expect item nine of metal fucker about our good luck here. But what about This movie, I hear it's a cluster fuck. I said yeah. I hear it's a clusterfuck too, but I've got my ticket and I'm twenty two hours away by plane. So I dunno what the fuck well just rumour action at this point and then there's this like a like one. I would be going up to mobile and drive while another was coming down to raise as us, steady parade of cars of directors going up to pitch their version. The guidelines of getting at is John frank in homer,
he's an old timer. He was an old timer. He was he he he was exiled from film making. He made very very big films in the fifties and sixties and seventies. A manchurian candidate wait seven days in may the Jane birdman of alcatraz that's good, but he was an alcoholic right and he destroyed his career. He has been for twelve years. He went into exile and the way he came out was he started in these very big many series that got all these awards and suddenly richest sallies out we're looking for director franco hammer goes up to brand us ass and Brenda says. Maybe it's time. Maybe it's time, theatre. get back. What you lost, you know and becomes a directorate for director. Remember goes to australia.
Another couple we ran over, I knew him right now. Never met, never met another couple waste by and they say profligate, get on the plane go I show up, but after about two or three days, we have our first welcome mall in part, ass. He spoke to come on the plane bright and we had. I welcome all and party for the next three weeks every night and he never shepherd. They ve finally did show up the, and I can't imagine what you're doing like what the fuck is. Everybody is like everywhere. He knows like he's, like the wizard of oz. May I know he's like he's like it's like lena the dalai lama, so party use it I do like enron, lung, who knows the game, So do I gotta what is is bullshit but the other parties like the agony, mountains, The only reason I'm here sellers are put in this shit on my face and becoming this fucking, no ram with with like goat with ramses. Here. You know that
I'm playing so I could be there. We could be in his presence right, so we finally arrives and let me jump to our first down the set. we're doing the scene on playing this character out of hd wells called the sale of law. And he wouldn't in tone these incantations because he would be the one if one of these animals step that align, they would have a trial and he would be the one intoning the laws of these animals that are not not to slurp but to sip right. That is the law not to walk on all fours. That is the line, and it was this thing that each dwells wrote. So I had to do this. It is big trial. Web mauro is presiding at home on the guy with the staff here, and I decided to put in blind because I suddenly do? I think I was smokes piety, and I said how justice blind here here.
be cool gear? And they like frank in ireland, a rag- and I was very sorry about that wrong, and so he thought about four days. It. Ok, I like it and I went to the makeup goes, and I said I want to have those you know melky lenses via and they said. Well, you the only way to do that as the lenses are actually opaque. You cannot see through them. They'll they'll make you blind. I said that sounds cool yeah, the biggest. stupid bonehead move, I you know I couldn't hit a mark. For the rest, I had I had two and I, I hated them putting the lenses in and taking them out so once they put them in. I would just sit there for like three or four hours through lunch and everything just so if they wouldn't fuck my eyes, blind
and I'm blind I can see, I have to be led everywhere, wearing or, and I'm I'm trying to do a performance I can hit a mark. I have no idea who you're working with your hero and brando is, is: is a foot and a half away from it? You can't see it where, on this little platform, that you know big enough for his chariot me and he's like he's, got a throne and I'm there with a staff and I'm giving these incantations. So we do. The first shot takes us about twelve takes. We finally get this big, shot and then we're going to move in from marlins close up and the somalian is talking to a fragen harm racism at first then launches the John. I want you to take all these extras and put them in shade and giving a coke and annexes and then another this guy's earlier, but give it to him. tell him he's talking about make now I've come I've, come eighth
five thousand miles, you know, forty five years to be in this gas presence in the first thing he says, is given to this. I know this guy get into the sky so frankenheimer says. While we can't get rid of the extra marlin, because we need them for their reactions, he says the close up on me. John little woody fucking, nearly women. The shade diet is no ozone, we're in australia, permanent by buy a coke. Take it out of my salary. John, don't be a fuckin nazi and fragrances smaller. I I protest, I'm not a nazi. He says jabez see a movie called the young lions he was. Oh, yes edward dmitritch directive that you in montgomery, Clifton dean, martin nieces, will, I know, nazis John and you're a fucking nazi. It will get rid of the extras, it can get rid of this fucking guy. I dunno what the fuck is saying. I dunno what he's doing it's very distracting and so on
don't like really get nauseous now, I'm about to throw up in my mask, which reminds me of them will be the verdict. Throbbing, your marianna good thing so arm I'll make you a deal get really extras and but prop promise days ago, whose pro me there's this guy, as parliament, he's playing the sale of the law in mind. For the first time look. I don't want my lenses and right now so now I'm watching. I can see all this shit coherent, ready and he looks at me goes well. Does he have to see those really dumb law and the end and for economic as well as in the script. That's a script. You agree to do more Well, he he's he's the sayer of the law. He says he has to say those lines, and I said the n h g wells wrote those sir, and he goes
wasn't talking to you and so he says: look the extras can go. Have a coke province days. He says, but tell parliament now he's talking to me through frank on him to just say it is quietly as cancer. Maybe I came in here. It really sucks. It's bad so the discussion goes on for so long that the first I d says: ok, we gotta go to lunch right away. I walk off the set. I go, I throw up like, I said, a humiliation. I just go. I just all my life. I've been fucking fantasizing about this guy. I would fuck this guy. If, if, if you know, if I had the chance- and he hates me, he he thinks I'm a fucking idiot, he thinks I can act, he thinks I talked too loud and and And- and I am
I projectile vomiting through lunch really- and I and I have all these and I am really far from phil stutz. So I can't call him on the phone they feel, what do you do when you hear o his just destroyed you and you're about to go play a scene with one on? Why what are unique situation and by the end of lunch. I said you know it would have been nice. women really nice. If me and marlon would have hit it off and we could talk about shit and you know streetcar named desire and on the waterfront, and I could tell him, but my my ex ex you know my my you know flights of daring dude, but it just didn't happen. But here I am they've they've paid me they've hired me to do a job and professional actor and I gotta I gotta. Do this performance so fuck him fuck that over that fucking one
await over the hill piece of shit. Fuck him, I'm gonna, destroy him in the sea now through the anger, works and that's, and that's where a child I cause I had to get my self confidence here I had to. I mean I was going to go out there with nothing. So do the scene and- and he is- but I could feel us during the scene where I I have a couple of lines and then he speaks and then I have a couple of when you get the contacts and and he sbi I got the contexts in and and we do it a few times and by the other that the last snacks to the last time we do it I can feel him on my wavelength like like we're now acting to go right and there must be an acute sensitivity. See she gave you really got feel, but I can I can. I can feel like because I'm almost like the chorus and greek playwright
he has to come in and top right right would, as a kind of like the core he's gotta work off he copycat ache and and and he's he has now. I can feel him real I think that I have taken charge and conduct this funding orchestral and if you you're, either gonna play or you're gonna, be fuckin buried in the beautiful thing about this moment is like who gives a fuck The movie right right right every day so I get to this day. Nobody gives a fuck a positive move, exactly the what I'm saying is a year the year. You know you ve pulled you shit together and your working with the greatest it ever was Finally, you locked in I love the fact that you can't see. All you can do is feel a real fucking actor that you locked in with the best acted ever lived to make a long story short cuts cut. So that was a big breakthrough. And that scene, which should have taken a day and a half to shoot because the set was such a clusterfuck can be, as franklin was so over his head yeah. That scene took five days
and every time we got finish with a shot, I would sit there I didn't want to take my lenses. I just sit there and wait and brandy would go back to his trailer. and every time they got ready for him to come back, he would actually have to like move me cause. I would I I couldn't hear him. I couldn't feel him and you would have to move me so you get his overweight body into this chair and I like that you're respect is diminished it after we could that were referred to of his, fat brand. Well, you, edward. On day five on day five I am sitting there and I'm waiting and I'm waiting in this long relight. So I'm sitting there for about an hour, and I is this? Ok, we're gonna, go a picture and asked mr invite MR brando absent I'm in there and I suddenly feel to hand
is violently grab my shoulder. He and I go, and I turn around- and I hear brando go holy shit. What is that in your eyes, and I go what he goes? Are you? Are you wearing lenses? I go. What are you asking me? He goes wait. A minute. Are you? Are you playing the sky blind? I go you're kidding right? I say we ve been doing this for could seem for five days and the first time you realized. Playing and blind his holy fuck, that's fucking! Brilliant! Are we need to start again?
If I knew you him playing, I would I wouldn't. I would have done everything differently. Just you just were stinky act I was I was. I was this big fuckin loaf that wouldn't get out of his way when you want to get this fuckin chair, he had no idea. I couldn't see my hand for my face, my god, then he said he also said, and by the well amused the mouth I got here when I got here last week, there was like a whole basket of of of really great latin cuban african jazz. Was that from you yeah and I was wondering whether you got it cause. I never got. I never and never everyone heard like hey, that's nice, he was dude. I been I've been in my fuckin trail das, in my ass, after that, how come you don't come in and hang out and dance with me, and I saw you and all of a sudden you after five days, you know you any slaps me on the face
like you in which he loved to do and the beautiful kid thanks for the rapid and come come to the chair, which I never did, but it's a beautiful ending tour of what what got off on a rocky footing, you never win. Now I never never never felt like like I was equal. I never felt like comfortable enough to just knock as door say: hey, hey marlin. Let's hang did you do the scene again. I finished the scene and and and at the end of the scene. You know who you could tell. He was like nice job kid. You know: did it play better one figured out the you're blind, no moving to the movies, how I mean I'm, a horror movies was a Is there some weird debacle where you tell me that story that the the original director never left the set when he never left Australia? He was. He was after he got fired. He kind of like he kind of
hey there, but did he like linger around and become an extra or something he did? He did I'd I'd prefer not I'd, love the guy so much, and I prefer not to talk about how deeply negatively that affected. but it really hurt him deliberately. Did he that back he's in the documentary, and it seems, is He's made his peace with it. I was invited to the documentary I chose not to because I just there is no reason to be it in unless you could tell everything that happened in it and it would hurt people to your most ralph numbering that you yeah. That was one of them. I was one of the last moments of of one of her cousin,
at that point, val was he's a huge deal he's like the new brand right gap? What a great story, though yeah, are you do to this day? Do you regret not going to the trailer yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I I I think it would be different now. I think I think I could like actually relax around them now, but back then I was you know I just I just couldn't I just couldn't do it. it's, just your marlon brando and amin. I really yeah. So that's the fight you have yeah is that yeah. It's always been a little bit of that when I get around people who are who who who really take my breath, but it's funny, though, don't you find look. I've talked a lot of guys. I mean you know: you're you're, your deep guy with the inner life. You not vapid you're europe huge fan of this stuff. You know like ie, I even in its bid, is long enough to know that you're you're fairly
wind as it as a personality for an actor? You me I dont but I met a lot of actors who are who were? They have a shyness us, yet they a kind of this something about them that, whether there's a place where they did not all that comfortable right and much more comfortable now that I've ever been is reason activity in my own skin, but it took a long time. It took a lot of work. Yet it took a lot of of really uncomfortable moments like that were where I mean when he, when he decided that you don't get rid of that guy yeah he's a fucking, oh god it was. You threw up, I threw up, but he said it's. A sensitive yeah. I guess I may I guess it like. I never thought about that way, because a lot of people say that your actors in a lot of times or our little, not necessarily empty, but
but there able to fill up with other emotions in and other characters, because they're not that complicated bag ass. The other side of that is the sensitivity. Then there has to be said vulnerability the day whether you wanted there or not. Is there right? What are you? What are you what are you now, you think in a vague, I hope said: did you love of just shared my in most darknesses? This is going everywhere, but it, but it's good, I'm happy you did it and I'm happy in so much. I thank you. Thank you, and I am happy that we have this conversation me too, and I you know, I didn't mean to add, to make anything sad, none at all san miguel but like when I work with you, you know when we had that time like I would. I felt the same way like as I like. I felt honoured to work with a guy who
You know who the real actor and white tissue work so effortlessly seamlessly and, like I'm sitting there doing with you and I'm like. I, like you, just don't like we're just do it this time. in stuff staff there and then you look at the dailies and my colleague, shit skies, like even he lives on screen, Europe is like when I'm in I'm, like, I just feel connected, because I don't come from years of acting. So I'm just talking to a guy and then you know, look at it fully form character its off all the craft, just lands. Well, thank you. I mean I I actually was I've been. You know I mean not to sound like I'm a quick quid pro crowing here, but it was. It was a great experience, work watching you work watching you work on something at that that spring, so personally, out of you and yet you're, so you're so comfortable with, with with from sharing with.
well, because it reflects a huge ability to admit? Hey, I don't I don't. I don't have it all mama shit together, and by the way you performed it as an add on a purely acting level was was wonderful. Ah, thank you, wonderful. That means a lot to me and now, as this is cool thing, to watch so outside The book and outside of work were you working on the thing? Is there something that like cause? I know we had talked once about you yoda, just spending a lot of time with freaking out of the never happen is there something that you really want to do for yourself, so my conclusion to all of the other, the stuff
the room where I was ruminating about in trying to figure out why I even deserve to have a story to tell was a and part of it was my daughter going to suny purchase, which is an acting conservatory school, and so she seemed like she was going to take the mantle and in visiting her, I became papa ron and all these kids who are who are in this art program, I'm taking them out for burgers as and where were, and I am being invited to parties that you know that their like raves and shit you and I'm on being invited into the inner circle, and I ended up getting very poorest. involve a lot of these kids through their whole four year. Educational thing I am, and and the more deeply involved I became the more I realized I should. I should be able to say something to them when they get at a school that
can maybe lighten their load or more or you'll make the distance between point aunt point be a little bit more direct or something useful having helpful right, and this was I was one of the one of the other reasons why I wanted to write. The book is because I've been answering a lot of questions from young actors who who like well. How do you do this and you know what he and the I you know by going to school and learning how to play a scene that doesn't mean I know how to fucking talk to an agent or write what happens when you get a callback or what happens when when I suddenly am making one hundred thousand an episode, you know how do I manage Does that mean is tricky by the latter?
tricky shit in the business is not just about what you studied for at the craft year, and this is how privileged you are to be in this fucking business, because if you look on the shoulders of whom were standing, yeah yeah, you know, starting you know in the teens and twenties or thirties everything that's mind. Blowing that you can do on screen has already been done. it's already been done has been done by the fucking grace people ever walk the earth and if you ever lose sight of that and you ever so, the book was also like mind your manners kind of fact here and never get never think that you're, bigger than anything that's ever, come back because you're you're fucking tiny as compared to some of the people who have who have paved the way for us here. So it's it's partially that, but it's partially like I can't
tell everybody. The edifice is that have been built or not built in replacement. The ones that no longer exist, yeah and off are are are bankrupt and one dimensional and bullshit, and they all they're just nothing, but you know the worshipping a false idols, which is which is money. I can't be that guy, unless I can. You know like. What do you do about it here? You can't just complain. You have to figure out okay, well, here's what I'm going to write and so the movie studio. Is this my particular providing a place for myself here and people who might be like minded
well of me, yeah, to ply our our energies for reasons that aren't just driven by money by bottom line by see start a studio yeah. So I have a studio called wing and a prayer pictures and we've now produced. three films, which valves one, is called the run around, which is looking for, distribute right now, another one is a core potter's will with for the great michael, shannon air, which is impossible russian right now on the right. One is all I see as you wish is directed by mark MR, which stars blake lively and we have another four or five that are on the five yard line, getting ready to get greenland. Ah you they say you're, the eve give come full circle, You're doing you're doing I become you, remember, I've become louis, be fucking mayor.
graduations wielder mayor. You know I'd like to continue working with you, Mr Mann. Do I'm ready am ready, I'm ready for my close up good, If you are a it's great talking to you back at you, man That's it! That's the show was beautifully human and I worked out new. Thank you run again. Thank you for listening people. For my tour dates in my special more later and then deputy have marching gotta devotee of pod dotcom powered by scores face tap into the abstract primal. True for just to listen to me play will do some more jazz with trumpet. I feel like I don't like my guitar playing my my jazz trumpet my hotel room, trumpet kind of seems to fall back on similar, similar riffs. Let me let me try, let's pick it up, which was pickup up the swing,
the part of the to people who vote for the total, pervert competitor now, our time with my a mouthpiece, boomer lives.
Transcript generated on 2022-09-05.