All right. Let's do this. How are you what the porters, what the fog bodies, what the plug in these does, what the fuck touchy and what the fuck and eighty and what's happening a mark mare- and this is deputy at this- is my podcast welcome to it How are you good morning, good afternoon, good evening? How works going? Ok, keep doing it. You can finish this run at sea put another ten pounds on you got this. I know trains do suck what you're just painting. studio. How's, it goin just pace yourself. Take your time, think it through the air, do all those things and all those different places. If you listen to me in one of those environs look, I got a pretty making show here today on my hands, I got a pretty like learn. Some shit on this show

the show. I've got commodity, washington, the master sacks man, the new, jazz, guy he's guy he's the eye, I don't. I actually. I think he is but I don't know a lot about dead. The big broad world of jazz since about him. A little bit. I giddy males, educating me even more about the jazz thing. I don't know. If I have time go fully on down into the rabbit whole, but I do enjoy it I'll talk about that Second, also on the show today for more jobs, information. Then rat, live who used to ride over the new york times, but yet right, it's funny because then. Right good day, literally like the day or two before or after he did the podcast. He left the new york times so he's the former new york times jazz critic he's got a bunch of south that I'm in the middle of many of them. So it's a big jazz thursday here on w p m with commodity washington.

And then, after that, a conversation with the Ben Ratcliff has at grab. You I will throw a little lad, plugging here for a couple of dates that are coming up quickly This weekend, Saturday, the twenty fourth of september- theirs to show at the wilbur I don't know how many tickets are there, but there's a few take as we have an over which show October twenty first, albeit campbell hall, at a university california, santa Barbara, that's those tickets that yet there is definitely it's for that largo october, twenty second here in los angeles and the ice house october, twenty third here in pasadena- and they now here this festival october, twenty, ninth and aunt I, with my producer and business partner brendan mcdonald, we're gonna do alive, talk thing, so those that in carnegie hall there are few tickets laugh but thereof there there aerial views november

or the carnegie hall but store worthwhile. It be nice to look down upon me from the rafters, but excited excited that's, ok with the us, it does nothing. I do. I turn to my my buddy Daniel, a bow he I I ran into him and he's been on the show he was on this show back on episode, three. Ninety eight and a couple of weeks ago, as you know, I had god god out. My lay on the show these two french comedian, the french, do the french moroccan jewish comedians. Now, during this day to a nice talk and if you want to your gad in a little different element, the guest on my buddy, danny labelling pod cast today that show is called model day philosophers it's basically, we toxic comedians about one particular philosopher whether they know about it or not. He brings up something the guy wrote kind of talk about. I was on it. Oh a while back, I talked about Spinoza he's emory, a ban for it on talking about south threat. Did I say that right colony,

in talking about dantes inferno. It's it's a clever show. It's a good show you this week, I so you can check that out wherever you get the pod as modern day philosophers and that was a plug out of love of the other thing. This is plug a love because I'm involved with it, you know, look what he had been with me a long time ago. You guys, if see my growth or my spinning or maya, my my I going around with incremental growth, to quote the president, not unlike democracy. For me, in incremental growth, meaning the only thing we can hang any sort of the hope on is incremental grow I think I've grown incrementally as I cycle through the patterns that I still persist in a little bit of incremental growth and then add the pattern changes a bit

terms of my understanding of it anyways not to be too vague, but I'm in this thing that premieres tonight, Joe Swanberg Joe swamp Vergoose been on this show and is agreed and very real independent filmed directories. A great guy if he might he a couple years ago, happy christmas within a country that was, I was funny during in. He did all the lightness guy he's you ve made a lot of movies for a little money and he's a solid dude and a very varied kind of a brilliant, cause I'd, never done anything like I did with Joe really. The show is called easy it there's on networks in nine plugging it, because a minute number proud of my episode, I think it's number four, but all really good each one sort of follows: a character

life for one episode in chicago, and I play a somewhat over what we do washed up, maybe maybe nigel up, I play a graphic novelist who had a had a couple of big books and now he's released. Another book- and he doesn't quite out of the following- he has always a little bit her a little nervous about the future and he feels a little irrelevant and the way that Joe shoots is all improvised, and I really look. I know I can improvise honest stand upstage in conversation or what not, but on a set the aegis go with very basic income. Asian and you are your own emotional choices into the thing and surprised because this, the episodes with Emily right, cowskin and Jane Adams, who I love was pretty like. I watched It- and I was like this- this is kind of deep. It's funny. It's sad! It's deep

sweet. I mean that all these things that one minute I mean I can we What we were doing, I don't know how the hell he put the poles all this stuff together as a director, you really gotta have a unique way of thinking to improvise that much and also as you're doing You think about continuity, how you're cut in and out of things, but the whole series is great I am very proud of the work I did on that. I'm just telling you as I excited excited about it- I'm excited about that being out there to watch. So that's on netflix denied all the episodes of easy leon and their their unique there like little movies, and you know they're they're worth watching. How often does that in the modern media landscape is challenging. You know sort of like driving past a landfill, and you know your first thought is a look at all that garbage. But your second thought is: I bet you some good shit in there. I bet you there's a box of money in that dump. Well, easy is definitely a box of money

commodity, washington, here's how I came to commercial washington work. As I said before, I like as I got a mine for it. I dont understand or or really how its put together- and I talk to Ben ratcliff- about that- I do know- it resonates with me. I got a cousin cousin jane. She listened to jail, and it would make her anxious. She literally could not listen jazz because it caused or too much anxiety. I what I have is a jazz is actually a riddle. In fact, like I'm already a little hyper and a little nuts and jazz kind of Those me out. I can sort of get fully in to the exploratory groove that the cats or are put now- and I can tell them difference between a few people, but I dont know a lot. I just know that when I put it on its always consistent, always lock into it whether it be Bob that's all you're, whether its big banned you always into some already shaw. I read our peppers book, which changed my life straight. by art and lorry pepper, there's a book about heroin and a little bit about jazz, and I remember

in time I saw this was really like this. Weird these moments I remember about jazz is like dizzy glass he was on. There was on it He was being interviewed on some show, and I just saw him do this like he was just trying to do like make an example of a swing beat and he did it with his hands. He clapped in a certain way. and I was like tat so fucking cool. I learn how to do that was like that. like I had to learn how to do that, because this he did it to make an example with something my buddy Dan. I look down at gimme, gimme records. Turn me on the kamasi washington. He had this new record. It was. It was commodities first album and it's a triple fucking record. It's called epic. Do I know what I was getting into, but I knew the cover of the record meant business. I knew kamasi meant business, so I took this album three albums home and I put on, and I was like the fuck away, so many layers so much time travel. Everything was

There was one of these records. Were you into it mike it's all here, every is all hear everything about jazz is here it's all leading up to this commodity She didn't epic, and I want to see him when he returned to allay these from outside. It broke his got so you just sitting in the middle on on. Basically, a throne played sacks with an elevated foot surrounded by at least twenty musicians of all different kinds. Singers, there was an orchestra musicians, your cello. There was two keyboards to drummers. I say a couple: a warrant their thundercats on base with his five story. I just was like holy shit. This What happens in real time, mine blowing had a talk to him. This is me and the master commodity washington, talking right here in this garage

so how's your leg, man. I saw you when you came back to her way now that first now you factor what oh yeah yeah. I mean he's getting better administering one hundred percent, but it's definitely getting better. I can get around and I can like you know what I mean. What happened thousand. I wasn't Stavanger norway and I was walking down the squabbling one road and it started snowing here and I'm from l a so I don't know anything about the snow. So I thought, like air force ones, that grip their basketball shoes. They should work perfectly in the snow and, like I literally like we got this real steep hill here for showing us dislike. Really all part of the city by all homes and I got five hundred years old. Why wiser like there? this really sleep here and why are we really about the walk, nasty? Actually had I do like us, our walking down, and I really first sliding now and judges. Fellow my button- slid down right of bodily tried to stand out to stop myself.

Emitted like flippin I lay down among my foot, was like go in the wrong way like no man, I kind pop did back in place. A guy and felt the most extreme pain house like there's like took logger warning, I like laughing hysterically from the pain it was well tat s all you can now that's where you weren't here. That's all. I can do that when you have many people you're with those like five of no time we're crying, not crying. That was one of those moments like it was a ea. Definitely like a very like fun Mental reaction was going to happen. It was going to be a baby type cry like a wang, Wei or Allah love all the things. I I wanted a baby cry them. I don't know all the people that will that. So I guess I'll just laugh hysterically good, so they think you're crazy, but not not a wimp yeah. So

like. I have a lot of questions man in in and I imagine them not. Unlike a lot of people. I imagine, then, when you live the life of a jazz artist, you're not going to be like I'm going to be huge, they are going to the adult world, there's only one or two jazz guys that that that have that and they're not that good. You know what I'm saying like: there's a global community around the music and there's people that can appreciate the music, but it's sort of it's one of those things that not everybody gets there, but do you ever teach we are to a little bit of work rolls around of high school. I taught music theory that there's a school called the assessor the assessor school, yet se symphonies like weekend, music classes and I thought theory- I thought piano in the top drums near east. Art is a drummer here. So it's good start. Do I give you grew up here? Yeah Whereat,

if you come from a musical family right, yeah yeah. What's your age cause, I think I didn't you old man play with you, yeah yeah. Let me play saxophone flute, clarinet here he's my surprise excellent that right, a shallow right right? So you go. I am a family brothers sisters I asked brothers. This is everybody music Towns. It thereby plays luba. Music pass may show that we all play something. I'm only one there really costs that would I guess my main thing like I have a older brother who's a photographer, but he also plays piano. I have a sister who's, a painter, but she also plays a little piano, make beats and stuff like that yeah they all got it in them. Yeah yeah, yeah! Well, that's good! So there was always at the house and there was sort of a necessity to understanding of it, yeah, yeah and and now what would your father play with what he did his dreams come true? Did he do the thing where he went to Locke high school, so he grew up playing with like patrice trees, rush in and do chancellor and all those people and their local jazz, guys yeah yeah. He played where he played with urban fire for a little while he did. He did a lot of stuff like that, but in Walmart

the brothers older than me when he was born, I made a decision to stop talking and you start teaching. So you could stay in town in that and be put right be here for kiss yeah yeah yeah mm. Where do you teach he taught at hollywood high school he taught at southgate high school and, as his last name was at Helen Bornstein, really so he's educator yeah. and in when you kid: was your mama music to my mom place will be just fine she's like more like you know, she's a science teacher. The above teachers receives He would pick up her flute you on special occasions on Easter sunday, wear a hat on easter, my mom and play your flute only after yeah flute. That's a that's a tough one. It seems, but not really, because it like when I saw you like here's, the reactionaries. My here's how I found out about you. went down over here to permanent records which is used in some new register down figaro. The dan over there and

He says every: do you get the commodity washington reckon my night no com? he was and then I go up, and I pick up this record which are brought out here, is if he goes. This is the first record. I look at the cover of the record. The epic and I'm like this. Fucker means business is a business. First record and has three of them in here, is a history of everything and in like I'll, bring it home because it unites, listen adjustment again because I'm I'm sort of not not down the rabbit all so I bring your thing on their pay. I put it on. I'm right away. I'm like what's happening, you're like there, because the first struck. Me was the coral arrangements and I never heard that before it. In jazz and then I, like all the other stuff that's going on, and I'm thinking like this guy must spend hours producing this and then I go see live and it's all happening life

you corals there, the two keyboards the man, google bass player that wizard Thundercat and everyone's playing different instruments. People are coming in, some people are saying and I'm like holy shit, what the hell what's goin on here, so why in what I understood. I guess I'm just gonna talk to you for a minute. It seems to me that you are honouring the the the actual honest progression of of jazz it. I knew of bebop and enough of of that of of miles and those guys that you weren't you fusion, really your integrating something of the history of jazz into creating something that had all elements working balanced. Let's does that true, well try to make it be. Like is like a person. You know, like a musician, has all those things like For me, like I'm, trying to make Why are you always have like, his this phone me this fusion, this classical music, squire's, squires, lagoon, planning, charges and stuff like that, as there's all these things in there and they kind of- exist today,

yeah, I mean so That's why there's so much in it because, like whoa, I want to make a record this. like me bright stars like up it is in their own poor net, unborn that unfortunate important that unfortunate I'm stirred altogether. we'll get you. Yes, you have always That will work because I just felt like music is, is so much more connected and people kind where it being led We know that we get these terms, as I like. You know when, and vigour back in history. Like you know, days brow had his whole mammal jazz are. Those guys are all kind of everything here. Everybody was there. right and enormous said my as those individual words kind of get bigger yet and they kind of sparse spread now right. Reality is the AL. It's like it's like branches on the same tree like well. This is good back to the tree for a little while cause the branches are so yeah. They ve got. They ve lost their their data, they ve they ve gone into the ground and grown indifferent tree here you can't, you can feel the connectivity and area so one

started out when you were a kid. You know what What was going on the house was the first music date you knew registered with you that way impelled? You did too to live the life of a musician other than your dad be enemies issue here. if my my house, it was like everybody's play: estimate moved. You look like, though I mean there's a bit of a yeah between some of us would like my three brothers that the tibetans are around my dear. We were all play it was like kind of like a daily thing, so I only remember when that started. Yeah right, I just know I always kind of play music yeah. I was about thirteen I'm not forever like eleven. I got an agenda yeah and that's another. Taking music sphere, it wasn't just like it was also. I do not imagine like your kid, thereby rise bikes. He s like bright. Would you like a dynamic, a bite gratitude alike

It's that you like, once you're up you're up you gotta ride bikes, because this you write about sounds like I play music. Just the company music played it. It was like and sometimes park's got too involved. You gotta laugh. They got a heavy, don't remember where he got away and let us just kind of play around with. Maybe he get into it'd, be like you're not going to be playing changes either. So we needed to learn that too yeah nah yeah. That means atlanta and we will learn right because of him. You know you're not my lemon advantage as what did it. cousin. There is that had a really will be crazy record collection, and so he kept asking me like I'm gonna be music unheeded here, for he would by bringing your the house, it asked me to help to think what a real book bunches dassault there Zappala planet there that planes actual drums

yeah and around the announcement that it was kamagra, also played always kind of kept playing drums and piano, but I was always I would always have a main instruments are at a point. My main instrument was clarinet, really that one huh yeah yeah I didn't want to do. I wanted to be sexual. I wanna play saxophone with my dad. Didn't want what he wouldn't. Let me because he played cause. He he was a woodwind player and I can you know back in the seventies you're a woman. If you're going to be a saxophone player, you really had to be a woodwind player and like double oh, so you had to get you had to know. He was like that was your entry level, yeah yeah, wherein the read on the clarinet, and then you can step up to that, because it's actually easier than Clinton Clinton. It's like a harder instruments or if you start homosexual and you never gonna- want to go play that old, honoree clarinet. So so I just go over awesome. I you know I was out right Songs for him, like a talk, show model play for If you want to know how to play it, so you would transit almost transcribe it yeah yeah. So he gave me a tape with a bunch of jazz songs on it. To him and he always at that point. You mean

I was really like in the n w a and stuff like that. Yeah, and so I got this art Blakey record and really got into an and somehow I got my friends into a do so we are all like. We all turns, and these are Blakey fans and eighty, the year, a bunch of nw, a guy yeah, we're a bunch of little kids said. Unfortunately, elementary school, like sagging pants. Every other word is cuz yeah, but we like our biking, yeah, so that's out in and do you know so at that point around trying to play the sexual stuff on clearness and is hard for me. What? What? What were you playing on clarinet? I was playing like classes that I was playing like stuff in metal books and this little look. Here's the rub: hands right! Look! Here's the you are awesome! I'm now trying to play down and lie, and I'm like this is hard, but this actual employers are making it sound, easy right, and so one day my dad left her saxophone out and I just took it out. Let them see if I can really hear

he's always I like me when you're not like learn it you. This was decided on in our transfers over near Why do you really believe right? So I wonder he left out, and I took it play the sullen. I really like costs leaping down to sleep on is a blake he's on his way shorter and shorter. Rightly I'm smart, blackie record right and I played it. and I ran into the room him and his friends would send their children. As I look, I learn how to play. Saxophone late, actually done, yeah, hey guys. It's like okay! You can laugh and later that's what you took me to my uncle's church our plan at charged like that sunday. The sacks I was actually I didn't know the notes were dead and he was like a real like diving, headfirst, calm person, so I was up there in front of you know the whole church planes. If one wounded know with a with one guy, what would the war was? The music just gospel music, gospel, music, yeah, yeah, and so I was like you know, so I kind of dove headfirst into with adobe and like that, it kind of really grabbed me full fledged. When I switched schools I switched like if the school you did yeah. So

When you go, I wonder how much high school and so I got a moment like because our did you like their legs. Were you aware, like tat? This was because you just hang evaluation upon music and then you get You get, you grew up with the jazz in the house, but you've had that. All of a sudden, you have this personal relationship with Blakey yeah, where you for that moment, to see that there was like a whole world that stuff it took a minute. The first, which is in our blake, humiliating la like our blakey warehouse buggy. does. He know me in our guy he's my guy, like from our blakey. You know I got in the way shorter was car. Let me the more they will. Let me like charlie parker- and I guess I play in Gaza, where we are going to charge- is going to give you a good foundation for that. The basic core of the changes right. It evokes ear rings by ear. The acting is like until It involves your ear, any intuition, tat. Everything is intuition. Milhouse ears like this now

one telling you what to do, but they get really mad. When you do the wrong thing. Yeah in jazz, gospel and jazz is a little more forgiving accident gospel is like, if you don't feel what right thinking you're supposed to be doing. It is ok of you oh and something there, following the room and you found that the song may not be complicated by, but it's supposed to serve a purpose, aids inspirational. Thank you. Gotta, learn how to lock your feelings in do it follow their lead. Yeah yeah yeah. They say they say you follow the spirit and if you eat out, if you're not following this lie, would you believe what you've been doing? What you've been watching? Was it a he's gay? He had some evil in yeah he'd been up to no good. You don't have the clarity necessary to follow the spirit, church, regular part party, life yeah

before it was interesting cause I had got. I grew up in church, but I never played in church until then, until your eleventh loss loss, loss of thirteen I'll say that, like you know like, I was there a long time before that it felt like a long time ago, like I've been over, because I was the one thing I I was surprised myself wasn't like. I was playing in church I thought I'd never play before, but I heard was so much. I can just plan here and I which was just old, spirituals yeah yeah. This all comes up like the spirit of some of the new starts nominee. I just all the songs that we have been singing all those years, yeah all of a sudden his plan- and I was like a kind of algebra- is all my my ears tapped into my fingers and, like I don't even I couldn't tell you what the notes are going to be right, but I could just plan. So that's an interesting yeah, that's going to serve your whole life yeah. So, like a buddy in I'm picture in the church, you know maybe in a sort of a narrow minded way that it was very like there was a lot of interaction I the dead, nick

at the people at the church were involved, oh yeah! He on an issue your own, even especially when you're young yeah, that's all right, maybe as ocado you play the wrong know, but it's okay. Keep on playing so alright go from that tonight. You gotta head for gas will use it you thirteen, I have for our blake We are starting to listen to miles and and then you start going to the school year and then do they do that kind of focus you on and theory, then in morocco. That time is when I go to John poultry. and then I was I know biogas tell me anything except him. You mean I was like really trains. I got to my school and like they. I guess, I'm you know that It will support him, I'm at hamilton cooler. They could see our towns, but, like me in and a fundamental of asked, my with me at a nokia. It is camera graves of lies in yeah. We were just full fledged john coal train it. So we were just we have while we were in this high school jasmine and we were like going out there-

all the way out here yet more times than take long solo, the air completely changed cords ages and drive interconnected craven. What what is this? How do you go into like? Where do you start with culture and of what wake like outside of jesse? Oh, you know when you play saxon in knowing the dead guy was above and beyond. Body. You know where. Where do you start to understand what he's doing you know? It's almost like I needed half and because my dad how to get me to call time when I was in my hand, I don't get it. I didn't even like it. I, like mrs we're right, it's almost at like have a bit of a musical foundation right trains emotional na that every, if you're my cat, You cannot be mine around what he's doing all emotions spills cray right. So what trick of improvising like that. Landing is letting go it's almost like like like what would like burden oliver, the guy's a date they ran to the edge of the as of the cliff yeah, enable they may come,

one pinky toe left on the cliff right, but they will always wanted air to stop right like we're trained, you gotta be able to run and jump off, haha and just be okay fallen. I was cliff and had the confidence that somehow I'm going to land on my feet, so it is about led yeah, you like is because you can I have to re, enter right here like at some point the trick to that type of improvisation, jazz. Wise is why, when all of a sudden you look at the drummer and the bass guy and go okay, I'm back yeah or they can sense it yeah. They can sense cause we all jumped off like the real lamb. You all a point. Look at that there's a tree with Atlanta three on a tree. We got make pegged to the tree and you know: that's that's that's so you start experimenting with that, like fourteen or fifteen year, yes ass, they stayed there about asked the polish still there the ever with none at all. For that I mean how I was stuck on after a while we're and I got was like what we were at, which we were all on that

what were you point in like for peace? We had a quartet covered the unjust eyes. and we terrorize olives ask loves relay. We will show up in numbers, and just you know, play the songs extra long and where the people that were running the place or that get the patrons, I could think of these kids all met everybody we used to. We used to go to places and sneak in we used to go to kenny Garrett, like the first time I make your day. We have to go here. Katie Garrett and chris day was playing drums with him and mind you never met Chris davies forever, and so we walk in their numbers, have any money or like year, workers days list, In the next day, we come we're like we're on kindergartners things We are now getting. We just do it every day, we'll go via the just thousand.

I thing like we're going to get in. So there was a big. There was a big jazz club scene. There still is one yeah yeah I mean I mean yeah. Those them are part, and- and especially I I got a car. I was the first one got a car, a car. We were all over the city, we would go like I dunno anything about that world. So there's still like you know, jazz going on every night in LOS angeles, yeah, yeah yeah Oh shit, no, no kin it such it's such a unique and somewhat insulated world is there anyway. Kind of like I imagine, jazz musicians, cotonou if each other, especially in the city yeah, like you know, when a new guys coming up ray? Oh yeah yeah, when somebody moves in town like a ripple, goes through the same guy? What's he like a new guy who came out of the matrix he likes to party woke up yeah, yeah, so windy? start learning about you know, like ethical music in the sort of layering that year. That would lead up to two something like the epic. When did you start putting that stuff together? When I got it,

I will do no harm or sudden out they had an orchestra. Nea had a wind ensemble. You know I was thinking piano african Other alpine jasmine and went on time allows an orchestra. How are you- and I had a good in africa yet so how's that for music classes in high school right? yeah. That was mostly. What you are doing here is the others. I was the other stuff gone. I wish you all, I'm a pretty good. I was pretty get it in school house. Like you know, my mom is a sigh features I was. She always was put. Beyond that level, and now I have outlined affinity for learning here. So I was, I was pretty good school. Actually they ask it. So starting point in the orchestra, and you could read music from a very early age. Yet I wasn't that that daunting, You know, but it was different. It was a year because it was like that. You know it was a. I never played an orchestra before so it was a different way of. great not not is expressive per se and you get part of the year eighteen yeah in a way that you have sent me a bars arrest and then is really important part to play. So right

yeah a lot of weight in the area and wood you take from when when you started it Now. Imagine like I don't know, I structure, but you I mean. I imagine that the basics yo come out of all training in and bebop and stuff There there's a set of basic they you're, you're gonna run within breakin. Do whatever you want, but I imagine once you get to classical. is, if you like, what the what is this, yeah yeah. I was that in every one of you to play different downtown, exact yeah yeah it was the first time I was really reading music that had really crazy. Odd meters, like you know, we're going to play in in in in and seventeen sixty took up my bag. Y. All k: do it, you re ready, rain right out. You know what that would be. What would that be? The reason there's each measure has seventeen six milton sixteenth note in my mouth is

That is. It was ridiculous that find their lives, but what the cool parliament that we are, as I was in meeting these ask a musicians right who are giving me albums, like people were giving me I'll take out the rite of spring. Oh here check out this. You know coffee, elves, romeo and juliet like this tat was like we The opening my mind up to the to to to this different worlds of music rights are just like you are with Blakey. He got these people there, like that with a with Mozart or whoever yeah yeah so like when you started listening to that stuff, you know what What was the difference for you in in, like you know, if you got some way like all train taken you out there over the cliff look in the land. You know what What was your first impression of what those classical composers were doing instead, because I I was in and out, composers, I was in the like stravinsky sorts of minsky is like writing his music, this so dense, and so like heavy, the extant

Next, there were trying to do our, so it was like I was like oh wow, so that other people to have the same kind of intensity in energy. There like a like over here, the over here too, and it's all- it's all near here, every maybe one or songwriting ol man. This is amended. This That was what inspired you to kind of. Like start composing yeah like like with discipline yeah as opposed to just written yeah. Well, although I kind of like writing little tunes and jazz, but I was like man I want to learn like sound like by the time I was in high school. I knew when I went to scholars. I wanted to learn how to write for orchestra collated that, like man I'll be and did you feel like it was cause. I know when you working with a quartet that so I got a one mind, trusting they. You can arrange to each other signals in and no feel the music, but when you work with an orchestra- and you ve got a conductor neo keeping pace, and you know you have to honour this peace. collaboration is very different.

damn working with a quartet yeah yeah, sir, you kind of part of this like giant body near and isn't rotation as opposed to create, is like meat didn t, asian right improvisation. If there is still a bit the self same, priscilla connection, you had to make you so you sought to be creative in a way we happier your creativity is, is coming to an end. and how you interpret the music. So what makes anyone orchestras or anyone conductors different in terms of its how they approach or or pay It's the music or pace of the music, highly highly phrase. It yeah it's kind of like salty, more subtle, subtle differences, so you can tell, but you can tell yeah yeah nicotine I mean the tempo of a song can completely change the whole philip it mike right. How could allow the classroom?

It also had a lot of music. That was like the the tempo is is is is much freer right. It was like the music kind of like has this kind of like elastic time, well two, oh wow. So it's like it's moving in his way. That's not so set where, like his dad, is like yeah and you have to like The walk into grew here. A lot mail nor does it have the same thing. But, like commissioner, with a lot of us. Alas, this right is like Are you gonna play this right? How you phrasing is so, but it's also the bigger arc yeah right, I give you a symphony. I'm a year for a while, yeah yeah. Guess. Some of them must have informed the structure of the epic in a way. Right now is one peace where yeah yeah. So that's right, that's do clearly related to classical that you have that flow and that our activity, but is honouring the story or the arc of the symphony wow man. This is good and learning.

You go to college zella. studied only music, awfully elements, algae and and composition must have been mind, blowing and jazz studies I was like I was all over the place. I was like planet jasmine's, I was when I was taking ethnomusicology classes and I was taking competition. so you got a degree at no musicality. Yet now what that introduce you to say I'm assuming that that means that you're dealing with indeed in his music from everywhere. What does music malva places? I mean? Is it some? It's out, we will study alike. Northumbrian classical music is normally in the classical music is even mean like stuff. We do I shankar ok, that's consider classical music. Did you know I just gotta shankar record yeah alive in seventy one at his house? Oh, you re a slightly below we shankar like ali, Akbar khan, in like this. So yet

about the structure of that of the rock as in the air and scales, and an end this their holy approach of listening to museum in in hearing, unlike their whole approach to music? What stuff. What other kind of music was this a try? I got exposed to this music dakota gamelan music, with some indonesia, really though based off these astronomical, so they they they they create like they may go like the the the the and I saw one participate slow and some months ago, but deeded and some nights ago The reality is that in all these layers, he I accurate these really amazing conor like textures and harm resolves like ireland, like right, almost trance? Why does even you do in those two year, horror, land you get caught up in? it'd put a melody on top of that and yeah yeah. You know so I was wondering that, and I was listened to like you know, there was like these. Are these these irish? a choir that like how these really crazy text years- and there is if were all males listening muslim? Is it like some native american music that, like you,

Can we recognise it as music, bright phobia? a functioning n, n, n n. A raid is open me up to the to the reality that their funding was possible, or even I paint monotony classroom is one that things are. Crazy to me that your songs law last like two three hours, long, one right, one joint and their people, love it behind my like. Oh so we have like this. We who we think, would you in three minutes they're doing three hours, so anything is really possible and also, I think, like you know, I I've sort of thought. My and I, and I've talked a little bit about before- is that your move? It really is sort of magic there. You know, I guess not spoken word. You know why were language. Has you know some power, and it's not like what I do. I extend a comedy where you are you waiting for a turn of phrase, to get close that music can actually enchant people, and you can do it over and over again, even with the same he's a music. I you know there's nothing

like you know why you can listen to the same piece of music over and over again at different points in your life and either it'll. Take you back or he'll. Take you where took you or will take. when new place? I always thought that. Did you feel that, initially, when you get in the country, that is a personal journey There is not necessarily like a shared experience outside of the guy you're playing away I think it is more. It's almost like it's it's a conversation, ok I feel like music is communication like beyond your control right is like I'm gonna stripped away. All my you not knowledge, and I'm my core is gonna cut. Is gonna, communicate with your core right Eliza? That's what happens when we hear culturing it's like you hear his court communicating with mccoy tannins, whose report will. Communicating with urban zones and Jim garrison, there are communicating, and as a listener year collar, like you you're receiving and is this

how open you are is how much of it you can receive a thing like this is like almost an infinite like you can terminal the big can you can you can receive, allow you can receive a little slack like I find that, like over over the years, I'll have a piece of music, and I, like I hear it and like I am sometimes I'm hearing a whole nother part of it that I never even realize. Was there re, you know what I've experienced with your record like every I put it on because it so much going on there. You know like you can sort of like move your your you're you're listening to different elements, you're all sort of carrying you through, but but you sort of like you know, like I got locked into their coral stuff on my list. What is that what is going on, and then you can shift over and get to keyboards gone right yeah sorta like oh, my god, he's mind blowing just the the the

and David yeah yeah yeah, and then, when I saw you do alive, I'm like I dunno. If I can take it yeah, but that's an interesting way to put it because if a musician is doing his job or doing his art that he What when he's done, recorded here you away. Thinking like was all their united I did my part, so when any one else he's gonna. Do it's really on them. and that sort of that sort of a jazz its people were like now, don't get it and then well, maybe just sit with a longer say kind of getting it, and then I will send you a holy shit. I see that that's the best it can happen now right. If you really here's one cell idea, when I was younger, I was in a jazz bow legged. It does the only ones. Yet it is one more thing because it's so why? So now? Let's talk about the epic because it is definitely some to be reckoned with any get what what I was really excited impressed about it about the

record was that because I listen to jazz but, like I said I am not in any way like. I got a jazz encyclopedia over there and look at the size of that book and that's fifteen years old and it's. Why am I ever going to even have that? It's quite crazy, I'm liking what I gotta go. Listen to ninety zoot sims records to understand anything. So you know so when I put this on and I couldn't stop listening to you- how you want to listen to the whole thing and it's not I can remember all the melodies and stuff, but I I was completely compelled the whole time and when we'll get like this happens with jazz. Why you look at the titles in you? I weathers. There's gotta mean something because if there's any there's a volume, one volume tune of I'm three now got titles that there's all other level that I may never get access. So what The plan

The players are mostly live rounds like we ve part of my life on what I want to have any kind of like being a example of who I was so a plan that hotel we are talking about when we were young and we would like so intense yak becoming like manage examine, read like I want to be peut jazz jack, but we really do if you want to be what we want. I mean we want to be great yeah and we thought that we were going to we were in highschool. We really believe that we had figured out a music that was going to make people understand jazz right cause. Friends did so. We all have we all women, whom we have regular regular extra, not deep forty, drinking, we smoking in oh yeah, regular people yeah a wee wee wee to convert them into jazz is and it was like they would love armies, they'll come ourselves on the world stage and be like in really extra. Her peoples, we highlight man, we are playing amused,

that we can like we're just save yeah. As we were going to we're going to we're going to here's, what we're going to save the world we gonna bring the world to jazz and everybody's going to like minds, are going to be open and expanded and like we were, we were working really hard. We were practicing everyday, eight, nine hours a day. We are going to be jam session like every concert, even if we have any money wouldn't care. If you came to l a we were going to be at your show right. Even if you have a one time we were out of gas, we had to ask We had the as one of the guys we have to as ask him for some gas money to get on your show and ask for money. Yeah, you got what are they going to say, so we came here to see a lot of people here so like we were do that. What happened is high so that that was the plan that me ass a lot of nedda guideline like where? Is it a from them? I'm here is music to our own thinking. About that time. Do you know? the glorious tale. It is like after high school, like we gotta high school and we all ended up on gigs. There were not asking here.

Where are you wonder? I reply was snoop. We're not gonna get was planned suicide tendencies. You know a branding. Brandon was player with bright night. You know, are you just working for a living yeah, we're all on tour with the big artists that we really respected? What were you doing with snoop? I was playing horns horn section yet on the road find her yeah. It was super fun and I learned a lot musically and as far as life too, I learned a lot, so it was important Armies always lag is almost like burma, We were all thinking in our minds like where are we gonna do I think that we may ask when we save the world. The areas where I saw for years and years, religious but opportunities whistle who, in their orders, ever so cool that like, but he must have been learnt, indifferent things again. Would you take from the experience of its new like so slow? you're not my first got loose. Man like the first thing I realize was that, like their whole approach to music was different. Mia like they were. Hearing things amusing, that I wasn't even here in nagoya, so they tell me that

when you play online at home and go like sat up brought up mere bow and I go I played I got, bought out, bought up bow and I go nope shut up, bought up, bow and I'd love to, but a bow No, that's not it because I'm displacing the no ever so slightly a really and I'm a phrasing is ever so many different allows like. Oh you really. Our hearing. The microscopic differences like that, like They hear music almost like most people hear music like the harness right and they're here, that is like yea, so here in a music top up in these little billy be deleted pieces right and if you and there's acts right spot with a little bit of pieces here and of your phrasing in your tone and everything else that is actually write to them. You played a wrong Am I glad if I saw the hearing music like this, like roused, really pay attention to like, were wit? Would you

deployments I only play and I would really listen to her exactly you want me to do it and like where you Zactly, when we put them this kind of thing, a church where they yet really yet the feed? de. I understand what you missing and he's like one. Those do that definitely has his own groove year, his own group and he's like They are aware of. It is not like them mean that down there on a silly verbal eyes, it right there hyper aware of it like you, so you not like locked into that. That nets measuring laser- you don't mean is likely. Did your whack yeah, you could play a hunt. You could play jai steps at four hundred b. Pm's they don't care. Can you play?

it right there and play like there every single time, yeah yeah, and so you know that kind of explaining my mind and like the the how the the importance of like the subtleties of music, you know, and you never thought, you'd learn that from snoop right now and it made me appreciate to be able to play chess like we were on tour snoop and we get off the stage playing sixty thousand people and we were in a like. There was a couple of us that were jazz musicians. Yeah a lot of us were just there and we'd be like one hunt for jams session and we show up on our salute me reports. We have we're caddies like it. I, like you know how jailhouse t shirt or something Ok man. Look at his like you guys here and we play giants, sing, blamore away in every like, what's goin on here like we like do, and that is as I live there, so it was like you know, and you get to a town like where's the jasmine we're downward snoop. Where do we go blow this out, yeah! Never look at is like

We won't play you sugars and not on this with by countdown like com it'll be like they're like alright yeah uvalde, we're in video and all that Rubin funny it'll be funny cause like. I can tell you that people I mean almost everytime. They will look at us like you get. Nothing. You do not play yeah yeah yeah. We would like and we loved it. We were. We were. We were at the at soundcheck back all our reduces player, yo plant, eternal triangle in this shit, like act is probably more o. The crow was luke ideal rang with with daily yet today, because you re in it, which now when you would snoop you're, just making sure you still got it. So I learned a lot. for years? I would you kept your from one, and so it was almost like you guys are becoming prose, is what you are doing here, and so then that

at second part, is you guys coming back together? That second part is that whole time period, when you are apart from each other, yeah yeah yeah, you like are- are a lot of songs on a roll smoothly. This is about that like that, want to get back right right. The third part, the historical petition, is basically I can when I'm when, when we went into record as it was two thousand and eleven, and I just had a revelation this reflecting on lobbyists are second generation musicians, yeah and I aha love our fathers, like basically did that, like the got the accounts, it connachar wrapped up into using their talents to help somewhere else, media in canada neglected their music division, yeah and so like. We, we all kind of candidates place and we were like we gotta do our own thing. We gotta do it like it can be next year. We gotta do it right, we gotta do it right and so,

we basically quit all of our gigs for a whole month, whereas hard to do like people who I we can't do what yeah. I can't do anything from two to three in december yeah. Why? Because I'm a core mommy right in homer, the modest cord mom, I'm court, his music, his new, his music. it was like it was. Hardly We did it here and I- and I was just. I was like that hope that record part of the records is my my my homage to learning from the past wow. so this say you would say the third record is the pure new stuff, we're not vermin is really is. My is a reverse the highest like moving forward in future to understand alright. So the whole thing yeah, that's that's about it. So that's why, like I'm, taking the pass and moving, of course, I, like all the old songs, we do. We flip them and we play chair. Can we completely flipped the clair de lune with a completely trip flip it you way. I learned from like mock ups things like what I learned from reading his books and he act that and even reruns like I took.

we are indeed like. I'm letter from myself as well right, looking back to was in the plan, yeah yeah yeah, and you know what I mean so yes, this is that that was the whole energy. Of that records of these? A full life record here right here now these? When you talk about we, you saying that all the cats in are on this. if the guys you've been with for a long time, yeah yeah, we all grew up together, like I meant, that's how I met rounds and then the cat, when I was three years old Why was that my dad had a band together? Yeah when I was three, I was a drummer yeah and I got a drum set and so out that I was at the party and like I asked him on drums. He ever and Ronald Bruner sr showed up and I knew monoprint sr, but I don't think I'd ever met as kids. They were like little, they would live. They were younger than me yeah. So, like Ronald Bruner junior was like this little baby yeah. He was like one. He had talk right, I swear, he couldn't talk mad and he got up and he played the drums like a like

would you like a thirteen year old? He was one he was like way better to be. I was like what the heck, what does this cause? This is my birthday yeah yeah. Now, what's the what's the deal with this kendrick fella? Oh man he's a real live genius yeah. I, like it recorded. I listened to the wreckage analysing the newest one, yet my girlfriends a huge fan, I'm not a huge like him. Dude, you know so I can. I gotta really pay attention and I he definitely has his own time zone that guy, oh yeah and you. How do you know him through the terrace Martin o'hagan grew up with yeah yeah he's I don't blame you gotta go up with is playing jazz, yeah and ain't been. Jasmine area, alan He was in a ban and so on. Here his overcomes came out. Colville supporters is willingly dope

I was working on that record with him yeah and he heard about this is like, and this is in two thousand. This is like before the epic came out so he'd heard about it, but he hadn't heard it right it's where I played them and play them record and when he heard it he was like. Oh man, I got something. I need you to do. Yay for kinders record yeah. for our part we produce in it or somebody is producing and so like me in and like they play. rigour and I was like borne away and offers our disposal that's all moral man yeah that that that that skip happen after year, but it's like every time they play the record. Someone by all It was more than I do that yeah and I'm an end of line airplane allah, the annulment of record book gee. I do any the arrangements. Yeah yeah, that's a lot of mainly those men and women string, string arrangements to hawaii are you out of the hole layer yeah I was down.

amazing, because I was I was there and like, and you didn't know kendrick before I know I knew of them, but I didn't and our minimum haha. I never met him and The major thing that I I was really struck for first off was that he was so hands on here. So I first day one like like okay kamasi, writes himself to this. I'm like I will give involve a gong come back now, We got a ride this year. You don't get to leave with anything here. So I was like ok! Well, I like the man who papers on just kind of sit near the music have a glow piano set up an uncertain horizon and kindergarten. sit no macao to watch him. What it, but it wasn't like a viable like make sure you don't do. Anything I want to do is more, like I'm scared sea like how this process works here and now. I walk, and I mean most artists- you don't even meet them yeah, I just like you, wouldn't any of you mess around and be the grammys way, yeah good, yeah, also stuff on your record or I'll play on your record like oh, really, thanks,

This year's was there. He was so hands on and then I will see him, do superhuman stuff like like once on terrorists brought brought in a new. A new beat yeah and I saw kendrick does create a whole song while he was hearing it for the first time and it felt like a complete song, like the duties, create that right now, while we sit here like as you were listening to it for the first time, wow. That's that's amazingly yeah yeah. No he's got that thing. You got from jazz. You got from cold train this sort of cap in india. spirit here and be it in the moment yeah in moving through it. Yeah he's got he's, got it for floods, No. and he's also got that got the spirit of music in that he understands it like the best meeting gift from someone is, is who they are

yeah. You know, so he really lets you do whatever you wanted to do like it was like he wasn't. I was, I felt completely free to do what I wanted to do when he like puts the strings on it somewhere, okay and so like they kept. I usually get alike, do something very simple and each other sneak a low cooling here and Norma go. Do go here, highlight four per army. Go five army? Go I six part harmonies. You know it. I was like we were just lie. I was like alright, you too, I usually go to war anyway. Yeah yeah go cause. I was like oh wow. This is really cool. You don't get to work like this, and that was a huge record des whose record is devastated Therefore, I ask of you and I I mean came in. There came already created this beautiful thing and I honour that they want to meet it all. I wouldn't you it is already so good

right now we hear something that you could do to this yeah wow man I was. I was blown away that that too I was honored to be a part of it right and as trucos duration likes. You that's interesting thing. I think that I imagine you u recognising yourself that the evolution from near the the it'll bandit giants of the mod. What is it the modern giants of job was the first year or young Josiah, the the youngest giants evolution side of your own skill in your own villiers, open your creativity? Was the ability did really collaborate on a big level right so, like you know what you're doing arrangements for the that? Basically the small workers sri put together over the epic that you know that the true to end the that conversation you I can about just get bigger and bigger, and so, when you work with someone I kendrick, I imagine where they're like we trust you yeah you're, real guy Do you? Will you do that that level collaboration is rare and its great yeah, she's beautiful,

we work on now avenue mozart next month, axiom now organize them in my mind like what I'm going to try cause. I have so much music, so I have to kind of like pick like yeah yeah, who gets the who the hit. Today he is, same crew, thank whom I have some other people, our environment, to this and young guy them and expose who recently that it, like young, guys help eu LAO. their young like seventeen that its editing easily. If they call me Mister Washington, how I go come play with us now call the musical yeah re talking and thank you for ever spent the time and and educate me a little bit and all man thank you for inviting me ma'am and let me hang out with the mushroom and you got it. yeah commodity. Washington now is exciting. For me, I don't I like

learning things I like talking to artists. That's what I like to do. Hey jazz it up, some more now been ratcliff is jazz critic he's a guy rights on jazz his recent book. Recent ever twenty ways to listen in an age of musical plenty is available. Wherever you buy, books is also written books about the most important jazz records is written. A book on a john call train which I'm trying to get, but I am not opportunity to talk to him and Without here now, learn, wanderer, AL jazz, but you know he's a good guy and I learned about also the life of a critic and what compels somebody towards the towards that gig. So this is me and former new york times jazz career ik ben Ratliff, the do you live. I live in the bronx, really all the way up there, where you get a house

they're like passed an apartment just in the northwest bronx yeah just into the bronx right its riverdale right riverdale, that in an riverdale has as a apart with big houses I near the river right on a par with you, no normal stuff, yemen and the normal area. I been there long time now, just a couple years how you haven't. Even in new york guy area, you we'd where'd, you go up there. I grew up in well born in new york city lived in london briefly cause my my, add work there. My mom was english really and then and then rockland county north of new york city on most of the time, yeah growing up and then and then went to colombia, colombia. That's what did it? That's a seal, the deal kind of yeah yeah yeah give in new york. I would I mean you lived in the art you. How did you know that colombia has like the greatest radio station,

in the world now here and at an and the probe and then at least may be still now about sixty percent jazz, so is as astute You could go in there and ah you encounter these huge lockers full of records, yeah and that's like in nineteen eighty five yeah that was the internet right, the bag, the roomful records. So you know you did. So you do what by it. As like you figure out what you know beyond any word backwards right there. the things you know and you keep going like god, fuck yeah. What's this yeah, what led up to the tiny amount that I know right and then you put it all together, because I think that way like I have when I have someone in here who's a musician. And I know that is not going to make a difference, but by everyone there albums. Even if there is twenty it there,

You do that. You know, there's not going to make a difference whether you know a little about the musicians, work or a lot. Well, I know that, ultimately, you know how I'm going to take it in when I do that, like I don't have a lot of time. Yeah you know and- and I don't and I don't necessarily. I think arguably, in that respect, research was put I'm necessary into into a sort of doing the lifelong. When my mind it's like we're fungus, neil young. I got a lot of work to do here by you dont know is neo might now on talk about shit, so and you know you might only one talk about one thing and your entry point whatever that is even if its limited I was earnest, means a lot. That's right! You know that's right. I mean it's that this, it's really authentic, right but you know you don't want do a disservice to the freak. There now better sort of like what he didn't talk about, there's freaks everywhere. Right now I mean I know pedants yet

I know what you want to do is at least give them something. What I learned over time is that If I get him in here, any talks about his truck. You have that's going more exciting for the nerds. Then, if you get there, ok see you, and even if we create something of value to the woods there, like I don't even know, we had a drug doing for sixty years, yeah whatever it is, but I like it idea that, like what like you been. What would you call yourself a music ratings for long in the new york times for what, for twenty years, over more than twenty twenty years, twenty years, exact, yes, so you're in you're following in big shoes for as far as young new york, jazz music reviewers ike. I does Hancock whew, marge human rights, her, I don't know a lot of the other ones, but him is, he seems to be the guy, sir. For years atlanta and very present to me too, as a writer who he would call up sometimes

and the answer he liked something he could only be reached by telephone, no, no internet or oh yeah. He did he passes. He's nice he's still around, so you still get. What are they cranky calls? Are they like? I think it's a misread now now really good I think he was a mentor of sorts now now you won't give them that just a distant, very positive presence. Oh that's nice out it's history because he was a definer in a lot of ways right. I suppose so I mean he. He wrote books about jazz. He also wrote tons and tons of of liner notes, and you know I really really important records. Yes in the studio with people he he really got to know. People like coal, right, so he's writing must have been of some value to you. Sure yeah, well, the whole other issue, I mean, I guess I'm so I'm such a like sentence:

sky rather than a historian or or a m, or somebody who wants to help the consumer decide what record to buy. I like actually love sentences, and so I guess I paid close attention to people's prose, ohio and Amelia. I get more. sometimes I get more juice out of people that I plight of my own work that aren't writing about music at all oh yeah yeah, so when you say sentence, Does that mean you're you're more like us in this in your new book, your sort of seeking to create a new context yeah through which people can appreciate music. So like that's outside you sort of taking from history the idea that was a time when there were there are community

and populations, I could only listen to one kind of music. There was a mainstream music and we all get fed the same type of popular music, and then we will have a classical there's just country people, but now the ideas that everything is happening all at once with no fucking contacts. So how do you sit with that and be ok with the movement through it? That's right, so so history, these we get somewhat short shrift in the new system. In a way should I by nature yeah? But but and when you say that you are sends guy over a history guy. Does that mean you go with your gut that it's a feeling thing that its poetry We're talking about. I think that mean The criticism is a really vital thing. You know it's, it's not just a service, it's not something dry, it something about it. Printing and almost communing with that. The thing your dear writing about them, the music and respecting yeah, It's a form of respect and it is a form of respect. I mean you can

be saying what you don't like about it, but that's still a form of respect that you're getting very close to it right and it's it's partially, just the the the discipline I came up in you know starting writing about music in the early nineties, What are you doing before that, like? Let's go back to that that record room anyway? You? How do you like it? Where would you say in england, for while you go to colombia, what we are studying, I studied classics, latin and greek. your english, major or a classic classics major, so you read latin yeah. You did all that yeah and would you would Take from that well, seven sentence: structure: Is it worth a love of prenatal care, we're getting really close to two sentences? He asked his work to ensure that and also demeanor read a lot, a really good literature in latin and greek. But then, after I worked in book publishing fur six year, so yeah andrew fur,

a little brown and william morrow and has an editor marie. Yet like baby editor, oh baby at her? He ever did you get disillusioned or you just yet and also one point out told directly. You know you're, just not gonna make it here so grateful to hear that you know what it's nice ones and waded through its allows. The really is we're we're you writing at that time. Yes, so onward, gonna novelist, her known, I was really interested in like music criticism, specifically cultural criticism rolling by courier guys like northrop fry. No, that was to english major refer me. I mean I will then mean yet well walter benjamin pit, pretty cool now I mean I guess I really read a lot of certain like mid twentieth century. People writing about music, but also running about other arts, like gum, Ralph, Alice

Albert murray, manny, far, berlin, movie Pauline Oh so you saw criticism both cultural and our criticism in it in in the way and making a distinguished distinguishing between a review are in a credit that that, through the art you? U explore all levels of of of humanity and where the dad dad that's your portal in that they are respected the form of criticism which is fallen away a bit. Culturally in the sense that another people really appreciated or understand the difference. we, like you say, is a movie credit, be like labour it was movies, did understand the weight of it. Yeah my I have an ideal about criticism. Just for fun, I want to do with it when I get out of it, which is like you take something in and you

and you are able to isolate the part of it That is, may be essential to it, but like if you, if you took it out, the whole thing, would just kind of crumble yeah. So you get that little piece which is representative right and- and you describe it as closely as you can haha and the description of it comes a sort of ritual act. You know now an annual and by doing that again, this is like my ideal listen of yellow year. What had to pay your real guy size names out every once in a while. I get close to the idea of most mostly dont get anywhere near, but em you know, and then so you know. or you can do, is you take a representative part of it? Describe it back down on it like crazy interpret it and, and Somehow the essence of the thing concerted rise up through the writing right and when I just feel like. That's it, that's that's it. That's all! That's a lot, that's enough so

that's the job right me. So in this new book you, you sort of like do that. You compartmentalize that process and then you literally x, on lists as exam of your point of essence in each of these different areas, is that you're using to appreciate muse and yeah that's kind of it yeah I mean I guess the book starts with a and a question and then becomes like a meditate and on different right of listening and write. The question is: like ok, stop for a minute Here we are we have in our pockets now not every song ever but but come on in. Seem like that. The ngos like as close to what people thought about the great library of Alexandria, you know like not the whole sum of human knowledge ever, but buzz?

it can seem that working we ve got in our pockets. Rise alike are so what are we going to do with it? Mia how can we access that stuff that we all have we gonna, rely on streaming services and anna recommendation engines to to tell us what we like and we can give them control over taste, or are we going to figure out ways to get back in in a reach back into the depths of? What's there and my surprise ourselves- surprise ourselves and anomalies that shuffle option yeah there sure and and learn how to encounter something new and not be alienated by it or how to care cynthia. You never heard before and say. Ah yes, that is about me, also wrong, about me. That's the big! That's the big distinguish per year that

is this sort of element of popular music that has always been there that it's designed in its magical structure to You grab you and make you react somehow. And that's always there, you gay, I mean it's a pretty far back right here and the hook the bee whatever it is there that the time that the sun came out, this was designed in a we want you to write, songs to sell songs, were selling songs to people here, make em dance make him feel something. But then there is this more of the world of music. As none of that intention and I don't think people realise that that the term sure they do but we'll even myself like when I started buying records You know I never knew about like these smaller label secondary labels he's home these kind of, like one thousand presence of some ban, the disappeared that that, like it was actually a surprised me

if I really thought about it, I would note that there was really there- please mainstream, and then you meet the guy at the record, store in your eyes. Like oh there's, this other thing, and then you meet another guy. That only listens to one weird, ass, music and you're like holy shit. That's there too, but then you realize, like there's a whole other. Second history to modern music. That goes we unappreciated and I heard That kind of blew my mind how fucking brainwashed we are there's always more there now is show. But so earlier in this conversation, you were saying legs in relation to on that day, blue beriah there that it economies, you feel everyone will overwhelm gear and that that seem we, the conversation I keep hearing around muse.

walk around the new muchness like the excessive infinite accessibility as a people kind of shut down and go like? Ah it's too much whatever you know, I don't I dunno what to do it's it's! It's intimidating. I suggest Well, I just think that we should like why why why? Why think that will use so the decision is like is a party or ifor isn't like, and I went out of my way in recent eyes. Musics always been a part of my life and I always want to be up to speed on things and in here thing here by you know with everything else is going, in the wind in our lives here that you know you, make time to just not even make time you just gotta put it on like those records in there in I'll just put on record.

today I dunno what they are, and sometimes I'm not even paying that much attention right and I'll. Just let them go, and occasionally you know, there's just always music going now and occasionally I'll go like what what's Asher and then you go in and you We can do it again like I don't either. I don't put too much pressure on myself. No, we I mean they think that's two key ear, Maybe maybe people are worried that if they listen to too much music, it becomes a selfish act or time wasting the enron I dont know why you're here, to like you know, it's your choice like even with that big stereo, and there are people like you, just sit here and listen to records. Sometimes sometimes it just put the like we used to you just go with it. You know and keep going. You know what people back them in your job is their me. I saw when we were in the house and I told you about my new elevated awareness of the king? When I put that on that looked over the couch- and I saw you in like what must be your listening mode, but I really like it there

What's going on, yeah yeah you're like all right I'll, give it another shot and things will go in the atticus was working yeah and that's a different kind of listening. you know what I loved with. That was them. While we were How can a brow I'd? I just don't know that record right A great deal is being preservation year, so blind spot right, adam and your guided knows record, I mean I'm rehearsal work and I'm waited this wisdom like way worthy daddy them. Yet, apparently, I'm a guy who ass music but everybody's got blind spots so that all of this one I just never got into the kinks that much but em. I like. I couldn't believe that I was hearing this this famous record for the first time like it was all new to me why nothing was coming at me, like ah yea. I heard this once nope yeah it you know, total we knew yeah, that's weird! You can do that.

Every day house you can, but then he gets into what you're saying just like I'm hearing shit for the first time, because we one I'm doing it on records, but now the party, what you're saying is that the possibilities is always air. Now yeah. and it's a it's a sort of an amazing thing to have that experience in about, I think, we're all prone to thinking like miss data, it's too late or whatever, but all this stuff happens now. It's all happening now kind of yeah. I think a lot now about the meaning of the past versus the meaning of the present here. you get the past. Is that you know the past has great present day, meaning the up. You know it's all cumulative relative and is this in relation to music ear, the area? like I'd start in general. I guess but like it sort of like I have this stuff

going on in my mind too, and I think it's relevant is just that if we lose the context completely here You know: how do we learn about progress, evolution, change, yeah? You know the good things that were supposed to get from surviving yeah that that that scares me a little sure buttony, but with music. I think it's a little different sure, the well um there have been a lot of there's been a lot hand wringing recently about how like world with music were just looking backwards. All the time right. You know like we're all where it were into bans that are playing music. That sounded like exactly. I was coming from the nineteen eighty seventies or whatever many. No. There must be something wrong with that. That seemed terribly we idea here. It seems like like

a lie or something like a lie or sort of stock or it's hackneyed or appropriate, has taken over originality, yeah yeah, I'm not convinced, I'm not convinced that it's a lie and I think there's something real about it, something authentic about it, and maybe this is something actually that I got from a from a you know: degree in classics, yeah, just thinking, the past is something that is continually influencing. The present quit not just for a few minutes to talk about the new system, sir, the new system is like I've always liked jazz but, like I said before, I always feel I'm missing the key to it. Like I like listening to it and I get it, I can jump on the journey. What do I need to know to sort of way you know, and even when I'm reading your culturing book, you know you're appreciating the timing and the space and what he's doing it's differently way and where it's coming from and a you know what I got out of that book was. I know that people say the jazz

comes from the blues and I'm a blues guy on the one four or five boys guy just stinky blues, and I can go back in time with that and find those rhythms out of africa or whatever. But like I, I don't quite understand the shift from blues to jazz sure how that opens up right. You know how does duke ellington playing in you know. How did that? Those guys do you know I dunno you have to worry about that so much now I mean, I think that I mean you eat, because you know the one for five you're you're going to be able to hear blues blues language, sometimes when it comes up, and yet you know right in in any kind of gesture and but then you know, I feel like with jazz. Strong melodies or are nice yeah? You know there and there they can be durable and usable through the ages or whatever, but jazz is more about tum like it in jasmine,

material is on neutral. Ah, you know What you're dealing with is it's you know it's the whole thing of you know it's not what you do, but the way that you do it yet so, sir, oh you're dealing with the sound of a band via an at half full and integrated and and original may be this- that that group sound is right. Now they communicate with each other to communicate with each other yeah and dumb. I always listen to the drummer he asked yeah I was into the drummer. I focus on that an endless and really hard to what the drummers doing is he may is the drummer. Is the drummer making the beat different? the time right and how is the drummer connected to the base player right and then whose whose whose following home and dumb.

and is it all? Is it all one yeah? You know the air that that's that's always my sort of comfortable. Start anything about what the solar with sir doing right right right? town tone and logic. So I need to be insecure, no no, no! I won't like. What's the point what'll it? What do you want to know more? If about kyoto? The insecurity do for you, nothing. I guess that's a good question throughout the entire. That's for me a broader question. I see my notes, you mean you, don't like every that's that is the question you know: its resolving itself is, I think, unfortunately, I seem to need think that I'm not quite doing what I need to do. Well, ok, do! Do you know this

Does your other book and it one? I Don'T- have the essential library of jazz these central jazzy, essential library, new york times its that's the hundred jazz records that at least in two thousand two or whatever. That was how this or how it may. I thought one ought to know all this. You know why didn't I have this before, don't know, but The wording is is like how do you decide that, like? How do you see Is this gerry mulligan record is the record I mean he's one of those guys. What's he got like thirty records out more so you wish all of them now so you're, not complete. You you're, not the guy that has the you're, not the catalog guy you're, not the guy. That's like you ok but would make the decision, if, if, if, if we had two to know everything

before making a decision about something we would never do anything with just be froze high we'd be sitting there frozen yeah. You know shaking right, that's my life. Maybe I should more acceptance now, I think I think you can deal with them. Ok, you know about new the new way of listening, and I think that, like we have the good thing that that that immediate infinite access for us, is that it can. It can give us the sort of outline of a musicians- com you're, right really fast right. So the example, I always think of his life but say somebody dies. You know like. Let me die right and dumb and you see a coming

if, on your facebook or whatever anyway, I dunno Lemmy is so you, so you look up that and you know within two minutes you you've got. You can see you're all the more had records You can find a place, it tells you. We know what the best period euros and whatever and you can cut you can fit this all out in about an hour rhino you can see. The outline of the whole between seeing the records and just doing wikipedia Wikipedia or whatever online on line. You can gonna get the ark yeah, and so I think that's useful fervour, some furs, some artist that has you know eighty kurtz I know it is. It is useful and its also like the weird thing is somebody like him. Where you know that's a sound, that's a lifestyle, the other there's a method there? That, if you're gonna walk into that, there's not can be

necessarily a lot of new things, there's not going to be a period of lemme unless you go back to hawk wind for those two records where he played bass and sang some that it's going to shift a lot yeah and there's a there. I guess there's comfort, but this also as sort of like, if you're one of those people that needs to hear everything you can kind of like hear the the the important records and then can click through the other nine records here? Did you so now I have this year, would he do What do you think a commodity washington, I really like him grey right yeah. I really like him now. Let me just ass. He question like I'm in a jazz. I know like I've listened to it and I listen closely to I read our peppers, autobiography I put on that kamasi record yeah. First of all, the epic and the cover art and the fact that his first record is three records twice tonight. He means business yeah and I talked to him in here yeah. He, nice guy, scrape guy yeah, yeah, smart guy, sweet.

shit together, but why put their record on like right away like? I was like there's a la happening here, yeah and and then, when I found out that it was all played, live I'm like the production. This must have taken hours, just sort of like take that and put that here, but he does it all live right. That's baffling yeah. I think that record would go into the density chapter VI in my book yeah. Well, those the guys in commodities band have all played together since they lids their kids, which is so meaningful as it can. occasionally yeah, Riah and the I mean I only started to see them. I came out to l a like a year before the record came out yep, and I saw that band for free

first time, I'll ninety of em yet well to be only ten that- and I again I know people out here of known about for a long time, the abbot, but in inner new york. We just don't hear about what commodity we had. We didn't know about him, yeah, so and I had a very pleasant experience, seeing him and his ban for the first time of like what is going on. I don't get it do. You know like. I don't understand how this group knows. What one another is doing all that I just don't get like this right mysterious to me, but I was grey rise, really good at the end of eagerly. I guess you learn to trust yourself to the went when you have that feeling of like like this. I like this a lot and I dont and I dont know where I am right. I don't know I don't what's going on, that's really That's you can trust that that's the magic thing here where you are there some whole here one year and its connecting with,

yeah music is is mysterious. Yes, like it's supposed to be that way. Yeah! That's why you know the music is not words yet I can remember all those things- and I imagine that with this- this wonder the essential jazz library here this book, that these records that dead there. definitely you can really remember. When you're mine got blown year with music, you know you can remember who turned you wanna do it. You know workers It usually every time you get your weather you buying a record whether someone going you gotta. Listen to this. It's almost like this portal opens to an unknown world where you're like holy shit. I let's talk which I feel like we can keep doing, with every artist that we talked about, but I do want to sort of engage in. You know the the the desire to create a context where there is none

is a world where we can have anything any time right now you could say like. Can we listen to some throat singing from Tuva, where I can be like hang on a second shirt yet and there it is yet when the first time I heard that, unlike there's a lot going on right. Well I mean I got, I got really interested in them. I got really interested in the tradition of the twentieth century turtle. of music appreciation, the music appreciation movement there's gear, I like starting in the late eighteen, hundreds and then going really up to the fifties or sixty there. There were a lot of a lot of books that came out and with the basic premise of so you wanna be a reasonably educated person about music right. Here's, You ought to know right and it it. It was an attempt to democratize taste in algeria.

there were these very influential, widely read books, the came out and an enough things that they were taught in you know in in high schools and right and it was really entirely about just about just almost entirely about western, classical music right sort of like box, arms and dumb and- Oh, I mean all that that movement is totally dead now for many reasons, one of which is that we now understand that western classical music is just like one thing among many right out there and dumb, I thought, but neither something about those books. I found really interesting, as I will. If a book like that were to be written, what would it look like and I thought well the for the first enough- I was It- wouldn't be about what the composer wants you to understand bright, because listeners have so much more power now, so it might be more about what it feels like to list.

you know so, in a way this book, every song ever is like is like a music appreciation book from the listener side of things. Right and instead of of raw adding about music. In terms of Andrews or movements or em. You know this is harmony. This is melody. This is rhythm, I'm ready. The chapters are based on experiences of hearing repetitive music, where I experiences of hearing slow, music x. You know things that, like everybody understands out slow right, slowness is a repetition. He asked you don't eat and you don't need to have heard any song right. You know to me at the rice, so I just feel like this. These could be keys to. You know, so you, like one kind of slow song. Well, maybe you might like another kind of slow song from the sixteenth century-

worry not encountered before or from another continent or from a culture that is that is different from are one or some you know experimental, music, sure, yeah, there's a chapter about quiet, the app and site required silence that kind of data, that's different than swot yeah, the is he really slow required by you, but that's it but those are the headings of these essays. Their slowness, speed, there's quiet, silence, intimacy, stubbornness in the single, no yeah, yeah and you're able to track it with songs. So that's I think, that's a beautiful thing. about what makes his book you know, modern and relevant. Is that you know I went on spotify and I checked out the you know you put together a list where they call it the spotify or my publisher, first

ross. Man made a maid, a spotify playlist playlists of, like all, every piece of music I refer to in this book and a grave fifteen. hours long right- but anyway, and in these chapters yeah like and I mean the sort of stealth thesis of the book- is that we should all listen to everything. You know I mean like what what's why I. Should we limit ourselves right so so genres qana at out the window in this book and them so like repetition chapter I write about james brown and steve reich nea and them. Ryan, an ye. I, like yeah I mentioned- I mention the cash isaak, but on this these all these different pieces of music, that that use repetition and I write about what. What is it, why That means how does repetition work on you as a listener rise at all?

and this is not one of these neurological books about listening out. You know, I'm not a scientist. I don't understand that, but can write about it as a listener, as an essay as to somebody who knows something about how how music? ixia numb, and these are an- your suggestions, tab about about Howdah! Think about kinds of listening experiences like these, these, these twenty ways to listen are not v twenty ways to listen. It's just the way it's to get p thinking about how they can about how heather's paths good listeners, why not on it? And I think that the biggest trick in terms of people that will be interested Yet you know that want to think about this stuff. Eighty, I think, as as a critic, and also I somebody you know have an open mind and be an educated, sophisticated person. I think, mostly what stops people from doing it is like that tax rates

and then in then what stops people from opening their mind is like who thou zack. I asked so there are so there's a thing of like who the hell is it such rat dude? Where is he now well, there's that I'm familiar with that? But then there is the thing when you're listening can be their reaction of Somebody like me doesn't like that kind of music right. Someone like me, this means it is not for someone like me right, ike and that bothers me yeah bothers me too, because, like a lot of times like I mean I've, I I don't think I've quite said that I usually says I dunno a lot about that, you and I know why cause people go hip, hop and, like I m writing up we're hip hop. So it's not like it's not a fundamental to me, but, like I want the ivory, do a few. You know, erect jesse record cyprus hill records, you know even going ghetto boys records and that we I mean I've listened to those over and over again, but for me

The primary reason with wrapper hip hop is like I'm not fundamentally a lyrics guy and the the amount of active listening. I have to do as a will little hard. I was going to ask you about that. You know cause we were listening to that kinks record year and everybody talks about ray davies, being a being really good with words yeah, and I was about to confess to you that I think I'm, maybe not words are not really see the highest priority for mammy either, and I a love words. I rarely no other saying in its way. Because I dont process it and I've had did recently try. the other certain songs. Ike. There are certain sides. I know the words to hear in blue songs there. In other words, you some velvet underground song, some yet, but sometimes words aren't even easy. The here ya, like there ain't, no country songs, I can take the words and I enjoy listening to him, but but for the most part

I I'm listening firm for tone in four mood and for rhythm and for how I feel you know, and it's a rare, early until enema, I'm a writer a like poetry, I like when it comes to music. I'm not it's not my first thing. I want to rock right right, yeah? You want there feeling the idea of their feelings that that motion and with a feeling of emotion, but so back, jasper, amateur! I mean Europe you're, a stand up, commedia, so So you know about improvising right below I just recently like, as of the last few days, you get me a good good day here that you know you hear about that here, I think I want to talk about that word. Ok, kit. Can we do little sidebar narrow, yeah written rick?

and I always understood rid the river riff to me to mean like a short, repeated statement. Yeah like right. Don't man who knew no right of right ever hear power if a short thing repeated right, you know, but then I think may be in committee. The word took on another meaning: oh yeah is the opposite of meaning the by going all over the plain right, never necessarily coming what age ass guys picolet I don't know I mean in jazz. We talk about rifts. Being those short repeated statements, I, like ellington, wrote great rifts right, writing wretchedly tunes. I don't know, but anyway I feel like the is with windows. Curious words that has overtime changes incompletely, and so I wanted to ask you like, having what have you always been aware of that word to mean the ashes,

going going on. I thought that's what a man and never unnecessary memory back to, but I knew the definition you're telling me again. I never really thought that there is something in I know, a power if the area yeah and their important. Here you know, I get people talk about the risks that define rock nosey right sure, but ripping I guess you have made has taken on a different meaning, but it does mean improvise so let me shoot at it in terms of like like I had this realization about where you I think I might have gotten it yeah in some ways, reading the amount that I read. The culturing book was that. desire. I write improvisation out right Actually, I get all happens on stage. It all has to be organic. It all starts with conversational starts with me thinking out loud and finding it that's just the way I do it. I've always done it that way. It's not an easy way to do things right, but it takes a certain amount of confidence and willingness to to to footnote run into the dirt yeah. You know you can vegan go and then you just end up in a ditch yeah, but you start to find

the things that work and then like for me. It's always been about. Like we'll get there's other places. The EU can go further. So what would I do that if I'm on stage- and I have a premise in that- gets a laugh in that moment? If I feel in it you just keep going, and then in that's how that's how I write like I dunno, where it comes from, I dunno where it's delivered from, but it's that moment where that happens for the first time, and I'm like that. it was all show for me. By giving him, walk out after an hour in geiger, really like to show my gear, but that one line that that was it that was what was delivered, and I know that, but likely you were saying: cultural and these cats it at once. You lay down the groove and the structures air like the blues, like that's, I think, drawing from essentially that, whatever the one or five or whatever the minors are whatever they add to that that you that's that's the groundwork in that's where you depart

from an? U can land manner right? That's that's right! That's that's the groundwork! That's the the framework right and the good or the consensual language between a group of people I started to realize more concisely, about what I do not to I'm not to remind horns just the way. I work that you do it innately it's right. Well, here's a ship where warmth at the table set now, let's go and I'll come back later right right, you what have be, but you also must be really proud of certain things. You've done that involve brilliant structure. Well, that's the last special, did. I was very clear about it. I'm going to repeat this shit, you're gonna, get it tight, he and his. Be callbacks is come around at the end bright and there's a you know, there's a little bit of an arc to it right to peace, right yeah! Oh definitely, but I'm not fundamentally like that because I like that, comes from security or not. I like it. It sort of loose and

guy can walk away going like night and they now it happened. You know that, but that's an act to answer it sometimes, but in it book. What you do threw out at all is you you provide this this context of appreciation, that's really what you're doing, and I guess what I was saying before was even when I read a book like this, there are moments where you think that it's not so much pressure on me as a listener, or you know whether or not I trust you or your tone a it. There there's something that implies like you know, like naga homework and some levelling away. So like in this sense, like I'm listening to the spotify list and I'm enjoying it now going through stuff and I m, seeing our connects to you know that I say headings and you know what your point you're trying to make, but I think, That's one of the reasons why, just in general, politically personally. Otherwise people don't like change, they don't like a.

Who things necessarily is there sat in their ways, but I think what you provide here is this this. If they look at the book as your kind of fun year process, yeah there you know you can open minds, because you eat your. How many it doesn't matter. People go back to it. It just matter you know you ve widened, plea that the perception? That's it right here and now Like I mean, I see that I feel that that is its own virtue. I really do like you know what it! What good is it to know about cuban me If you want to know more about punk it in a way it doesn't. It doesn't make sense, but I just feel that It gives you a wider frame of reference. We haven't having a wider frame of reference is just intrinsically good.

no esu and that, but also that was the job I stepped into twenty years ago is like you know, one of my predecessors is guy robert palmer yeah, I him and he and the people. What followed was a rock guy, though primarily wasn't he, but he wrote about jazz yeah and cuban music and african music yeah whatever, and he was just. He was wide open. You know and By the time I got there and ninety six that was kind of what I was expected do, and it was amazing that that that the expectation was that you know I'd, be writing about or in a common one day and dumb jackson. The next day right, you know, and a metal band that party europe, oh yeah, yeah. I'm I'm really grateful for that. I had said shall knowledge is a weird thing I mean you know having having done

kind of work for a long time, I'm always running into people who know everything about this, Won't be that guy that now I don't know, and I'm glad those people exists, because their very very helpful for an hour sure yeah, yeah or in small doses year, because they, because there that see, that's the the the nerd element of that this special eyes. Nerd. Is so control, oriented and and also sort of like No, I know it all yeah yeah, but do you write their useful? But you know you have to limit your coffee time I also don't want to feel like I own anything me. I don't want to feel like a sense of property. right about the idea of this. You know an why or wanting to patrol it right I just want. I want to connect things-

I want I want to describe, interpret connect your gun in for the at the thing like we talked about it, or the one thing that if it wasn't there yeah everything would fall apart in music into as an entirely yes. Yes, it s a boy. Yeah, you pull the curtain back there. that's good! lifelong thing. I think, while also again it's like the results of of the training, because you got caught, will really read about concerts any more than that in the new york times. It's kind of weird, or why is it you think very recently, the de it's been understood that the most concert reviews, don't red widely enough, so we're like, as a people, think I glowered in there is there another one coming up. That's definitely part,

I think maybe people are tired of the box with text in it called review. Right now I they want something differently idea so anyway, I guess you know for twenty years ago to a concert I've got my notebook. I just write things down because it's a habit but I'll use practically anything right that that I've written down when it comes to the next morning, when I'm writing is I remember something. Just a little detail get one or two thrice and that's what I'm gonna start from it that active writing, sometimes just solidifies it in the brain, yeah yeah. So do you dance a little okay, I'm I move I'll get. Yes, yes, I know I mean I'm, you know.

Don't give me. Do I go out and dance to go to clubs to dance like at home. Like you know, when you're listening to your guy, listen to our music, the mood you drove around absolutely I'll get yeah yeah, I wanna. I wanna know how that feels: yeah yeah and that's sort of the It's all about yet you know the engagement, unsure, yeah yeah, it's im going yeah, you know, I don't do it I'll pass out in public as much sometimes I'll. Do it at home a bit. You know, I feel it yeah, yeah, I don't know why you like, I think, someone's, got to write a book about dance like this book by gay. I think feels like dancing, is a joyous thing that, like we're all little embarrassed to do by getting the of the likely. I think that, a very by day it's a little bit like. Maybe if there was a dance break the day in this country, like other countries, take naps, my might be It's a great idea, dance day, as a really great idea was good. talk. India did you, I did it. I think we did something. I think we did a year

Yes, you aren't you. I hear of of one song of that re mixed, get your ideas out on my system, yes had to advance thanks for talk, and thank you ok vows a breed full episodes. I hope you all go out and buy some jazz record get that epic tomasi washington before we go go to dvd. bob gambro, your deputy pod needs no music. Today I gotta go to set I'm shooting a thing: blow gorgeous lady wrestling I'll, tell you more about that. I will take with a will bit here at the end by them you're my character as a mild propensity doolittle blow, occasionally. So I wanted to make sure I got that wet inside the nose, vibe I do not think that those who do well know take a little water and you nor a little water stump, a water in your hand of run under the single eu fingers and pull

I didn't notice rise. Doing that our public- so am I at least one or two people on set- probably think I'm really doing boil. I'm not